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Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

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Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#61

Post by jumper »

sanj wrote: post #13
halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women? Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf? I'm not kidding. I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid. Now imagine going through that every day in…

I've always heard things like "I think you'll find that you're lonely." Hm. Well, yeah, I (male) do find that! But it doesn't seem to matter where I am or what "group" I'm in, I'm lonely as hell. I connect on a meaningful level with a very low percentage of people. Most of the others can be classified as disconnected from me and apathetic about me (not "wrong" per se) or actively malignant, in that they are bullies or otherwise seek to use\abuse me, probably in a totem pole ego gratification move or just in a political\profit based one.

I dunno. I think what it comes down to is that in most things, male\female is much the same experience, even if it expresses it self in different ways. You can rant on about all the sucky hard experiences one side gets, but I think if you really look, you'll find the otherside has a very similar set of problems as well.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#62

Post by maurycy »

Prrometheus wrote: post #30
halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

I think most arguments for "diversity" are bullshyt. However, I can see how otherwise qualified female applicants might feel intimidated by an organization that is 95%+ male. Increasing the number of females in the program could therefore increase the average quality of the founder pool. But yes, I don't see any worth in "diversity" for its own sake, unless we are talking about a diversity of skill-sets, knowledge, o…

Diversity is good because when members have different experiences, and thus point of views.

"Point of view is worth 80 IQ points"

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#63

Post by pinkgarage »

jodie wrote: post #58
pinkgarage wrote: post #46

This is a fascinating set of responses. For those men who don't see the need and therefore don't approve, I wonder why you are objecting? For those who see this as exclusionary, you might ask yourself whether an all white organization seems meant for and welcoming to a person of color, and then swap out gender and see what your response is. Just because women live in a world where most engineering cultures are set by…

I'm applying for this year's cycle and have sent pinkgaragementors a couple of emails with no reply. Any other way to get in touch?

jodie--the email is pinkgaragementors@gmail.com or email me directly via my blog-susan mernit

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#64

Post by jimbokun »

smoody wrote: post #16
sanj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women? Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf? I'm not kidding. I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid. Now imagine going through that every day in…

I know exactly what you're talking about. I once worked for a software company where the female engineers/managers way outnumbered the male engineers. It became known as a friendly place for female engineers to work and that, in turn, attracted more female engineers. But that's not my point. My point is, at that company, I would often go to engineering meetings (with five to seven other people) where I was the only m…

Somehow, I've managed to have more women bosses than men bosses in my programming career. I've never had a problem communicating with them, or felt uncomfortable voicing my opinion. I suppose that's different, though, than having the coworkers mostly female, too.

Mind you, I am not saying that I have any complaints about my own experience. The women in question have been good bosses, and mostly have let me use my own judgment in deciding how to complete the tasks assigned to me. For those of us programming as an employee, for the most part I think this is all we really want.

Maybe this is why I have a hard time accepting programs that seek to pump indifferent women into computer science/programming fields. I can't relate to the idea that women are discriminated against in this field when, more often than not, it has been a woman telling me what to do. For what it's worth, most of these women seemed more than happy to let others do the implementation and make technical decisions, while they focused more on the parts of the work that require human interaction. This is not to say that they did not understand the technical questions or were incapable of doing the implementation, just that it did not seem to interest them as strongly as the inter-personal aspects.

Having said that, I don't have any objections to this program being offered to help women entrepreneurs. I agree with the sentiments expressed elsewhere that men in women dominated fields find the same need to talk to men who have "been there" and can relate to the minority experience.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#65

Post by cstejerean »

iamelgringo wrote: post #55
smoody wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I once worked for a software company where the female engineers/managers way outnumbered the male engineers. It became known as a friendly place for female engineers to work and that, in turn, attracted more female engineers. But that's not my point. My point is, at that company, I would often go to engineering meetings (with five to seven other people) where I was the only m…

I'm a man, and I've worked as an ER/ICU nurse for the past 15 years. Being a gender FOO in a gender BAZ dominated industry can be unpleasant and challenging at times. Not to complain, but to make the point: * I almost got expelled from nursing school because of what I believe was discrimination towards men. I've talked to other men who've had similar experiences. * I worked on a unit where my charge nurse repeatedly…

I'm a bit confused about the last two points. If you were a big strong female would they not have asked you to help move patients or take care of hostile patients? Were you asked to help with physical tasks because you are a man or because you are strong?

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#66

Post by jimbokun »

nostrademons wrote: post #19
sanj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women? Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf? I'm not kidding. I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid. Now imagine going through that every day in…

I took a course at Mt. Holyoke in college (I'm male, Mt. Holyoke is an all-women's college). I also spent quite a while in the Harry Potter fandom, which is literally 99% female. In neither situation did I ever feel marginalized, or excluded, or ignored. Occasionally I felt like I was an object of curiosity, but I can deal with that. It is a bit of a culture shock, and in both situations I was careful to observe firs…

"It's not really a sex issue:"

Nope. It's totally a sex issue.

I still think it's a fine thing to do. But this is just a ridiculous statement.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#67

Post by jimbokun »

zasz wrote: post #28
halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

I'm all for such groups targeted exclusively for minorities, even if there were no longer any discrimination. Suppose you're a member of minority M, looking to get into group G, which is dominated by members of group D, who are all significantly different in some very obvious way. Wouldn't you personally like a little reassurance from someone else in M who's made it in G, that you too can do well? It's just plain hum…

I lived in Japan twice for the summer, and once for a whole year.

I was really into Japanese culture and language, and was very excited to immerse myself in the whole experience all 3 times. For the two summers, this was not a problem. I took the same approach for my year long stay.

However, after month 4 or 5, I totally burned out. I was spending all week and all weekend speaking Japanese, which I was improving at a lot, but still required a lot more mental effort than speaking English. Beyond that, there are just lots of little cultural things to always be mindful of and this added a small but constant burden, too.

It was at this time that I started attending an English speaking church, attended by ex-pats. One thing I discovered was that, even if the person was Taiwanese and we were speaking Japanese because that was the one common language between us, we still agreed on the same things that were weird about Japan.

Having this support group made a world of difference. I was still in a Japanese environment, spending most days speaking mostly Japanese, but I had an outlet.

I suspect this is what women get from having female connections in the CS/programming world. As much as our society sometimes tries to ignore the fact, men and women are different enough that it is occasionally necessary to get away from the other culture and retreat into your own, even if only to hear someone agree about how weird the other culture can be.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#68

Post by jimbokun »

mhartl wrote: post #8
halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

Though clearly well-intentioned, these sorts of things have always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It seems they are only acceptable for categories outside the "dominant" set {white, male}. "Women in Engineering" is fine, as is "African Americans in Medicine". And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus, I'd bet they're not particularly accepting of people who don't fit the profile. As a white male, I'm sure I enjoy all sorts…

"And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus"

Did you see the episode of Will and Grace, where Matt Damon pretends to be gay because that is the only way he can get accepted into the men's chorus group?

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#69

Post by jimbokun »

aston wrote: post #44
mhartl wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really opposition, just uneasiness. I believe in voluntary associations, but I think it's a warning sign that it would be hard to form the "National Society of White Engineers" without seeming racist or a "Men in Engineering" group without seeming sexist, even if they accepted anyone who wanted to join. The National Society of Black Engineers, no matter how welcoming they may be in practice, just don't sound…

Well, the pattern isn't "random group of people get-together," it's "severe minority group get-together." Less of a warning sign and more of a general pattern. I think it makes a lot of sense to look for the familiar when you're surrounded by something that is somehow alien to you. And since the groups are often formed because of some exclusion (perceived or real), they're very rarely exclusionary themselves. As a wh…

I describe experiencing this kind of thing in Japan elsewhere in this thread.

Re: Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

#70

Post by jimbokun »

bootload wrote: post #27
halo wrote: post #4

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…

"... I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things ..." Maybe because you are a member (myself included) of a homogeneous monk-like cloistered society that meets daily with your own kind where everyone knows the secret hand-shake and acknowledges you. Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore if you are different you are going to be side-lined. I…

I thought some orchestras started having blind auditions, where the performer is behind some kind of opaque barrier?
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