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The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

bbc.com

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Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#61

Post by contingencies »

ignoramous wrote: post #59
oceanplexian wrote: post #31

I'm not sure why BBC finds it so fascinating that the Moors were able to dig ditches and channel water through them 500 years after the Romans had built highly advanced aqueducts in Spain ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct_of_Segovia , https://fascinatingspain.com/place-to-visit/the-best-of/the-... ). All I can guess is that some civilizations are more in vogue than others. In fact when the Moors invaded Spain,…

> in a fit of religious fanaticism Umayyids (the "Syrians" who conquered Spain) and religious fanaticism don't go hand in hand: Most Umayyid rulers were political nihilists at best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate#Legacy

Furthermore my understanding is they ushered in an amazing era of translation and learning where great state resources were directed to supporting linguistic, cultural and pedagogical achievement and were explicitly pluralistic in terms of state policy on the religions of their subjects. (Source: BBC video series on the Moorish period)

Compare Spain today; you can barely get around without being fed jamon. My understanding is that historically there was actually a purposeful, vindictive re-introduction of pork in to (nearly all) Spanish food to "flush out" any Muslims in hiding after the Moorish period and this culture of ham-in-everything has basically continued to the present. (Source: Traveling with a Muslim in Spain)

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#62

Post by AlecSchueler »

contingencies wrote: post #61
ignoramous wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a fit of religious fanaticism Umayyids (the "Syrians" who conquered Spain) and religious fanaticism don't go hand in hand: Most Umayyid rulers were political nihilists at best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate#Legacy

Furthermore my understanding is they ushered in an amazing era of translation and learning where great state resources were directed to supporting linguistic, cultural and pedagogical achievement and were explicitly pluralistic in terms of state policy on the religions of their subjects. (Source: BBC video series on the Moorish period) Compare Spain today; you can barely get around without being fed jamon . My unders…

Wow, I'd love to read more about this if you have any sources.

I visited Spain as a vegetarian a few years ago and I found the pork thing so weird. I'd go into a random bar and ask for a beer then they'd give it to me with a plate of sausages on the side without mentioning it or asking first!

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#63

Post by alephxyz »

cm2187 wrote: post #24

How does that differ from ancien Rome's aqueducts?

Different time scales. Aqueducts are (mainly) used for transporting water. These things are used to store springwater in aquifers so that it slowly trickles out or can be pumped during the dry season.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#64

Post by otikik »

narag wrote: post #33
otikik wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are simply wrong and are touching a sensitive point. I grew up in Córdoba (which is west from Sierra Nevada). It gets to 49 centigrades in the summer. It’s not officially considered “a desert”… but it will soon. Temperature has been going up and rain went down. Fewer plants survive each summer. This is a pattern that you see through all the Spanish south. Desertification is a big, visible problem that should not…

You are simply wrong So the headline is precise and I'm wrong when I say those acequias can only provide water for small zones... and because it's a "sensitive point", nobody can disagree. Appaling.

Enjoy your orchids.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#65

Post by nashashmi »

oceanplexian wrote: post #31

I'm not sure why BBC finds it so fascinating that the Moors were able to dig ditches and channel water through them 500 years after the Romans had built highly advanced aqueducts in Spain ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct_of_Segovia , https://fascinatingspain.com/place-to-visit/the-best-of/the-... ). All I can guess is that some civilizations are more in vogue than others. In fact when the Moors invaded Spain,…

Much to your dismay, Arabs never destroyed things with religious fanaticism. They were mostly hands free and laid back with the fewest rules for non-ruling communities, especially in the early years of the expansion.

Instead what they did was build on top of existing stuff. The Arabs didn't invent aqua ducts. They got it from other civilizations. What Arabs did do was connect ideas from the Greeks, Romans, Indians, North Africa, and sub sahara Africa. And because they were laid back with the fewest rules, lot more innovation and mashing of ideas occurred during this period.

this was in contrast to the Roman Catholic Church which was more domineering and controlling to a fault.

Search youtube for "how Islam saved western civilization" for a rundown. The library in Spain was a collection of all the great European works until Europe awokened in the Renaissance which was built off of the works Arabs had continued.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#66

Post by sobkas »

contingencies wrote: post #61
ignoramous wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a fit of religious fanaticism Umayyids (the "Syrians" who conquered Spain) and religious fanaticism don't go hand in hand: Most Umayyid rulers were political nihilists at best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate#Legacy

Furthermore my understanding is they ushered in an amazing era of translation and learning where great state resources were directed to supporting linguistic, cultural and pedagogical achievement and were explicitly pluralistic in terms of state policy on the religions of their subjects. (Source: BBC video series on the Moorish period) Compare Spain today; you can barely get around without being fed jamon . My unders…

> Furthermore my understanding is they ushered in an amazing era of translation and learning where great state resources were directed to supporting linguistic, cultural and pedagogical achievement and were explicitly pluralistic in terms of state policy on the religions of their subjects. (Source: BBC video series on the Moorish period)

> Compare Spain today; you can barely get around without being fed jamon. My understanding is that historically there was actually a purposeful, vindictive re-introduction of pork in to (nearly all) Spanish food to "flush out" any Muslims in hiding after the Moorish period and this culture of ham-in-everything has basically continued to the present. (Source: Traveling with a Muslim in Spain)

Jews were also victims of such dietary inquisition (sometimes literally).

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#67

Post by giardini »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #62
contingencies wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore my understanding is they ushered in an amazing era of translation and learning where great state resources were directed to supporting linguistic, cultural and pedagogical achievement and were explicitly pluralistic in terms of state policy on the religions of their subjects. (Source: BBC video series on the Moorish period) Compare Spain today; you can barely get around without being fed jamon . My unders…

Wow, I'd love to read more about this if you have any sources. I visited Spain as a vegetarian a few years ago and I found the pork thing so weird. I'd go into a random bar and ask for a beer then they'd give it to me with a plate of sausages on the side without mentioning it or asking first!

Are you required to pay for the plate of sausages if you don't eat any?

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#68

Post by Ligma123 »

spookie wrote: post #47
asabil wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that there would be no cultural heritage after ~700 years. What I think you want to say is that the "identity" of modern Spain and Portugal has been shaped and defined by its opposition to the moor/muslim/north-african identity.

I do disagree with your last sentence, a lot of Portuguese are proud of their north-african connections. Most families come from "newly-christians" after all (and you gotta blame Spain's Phillips for that one).

I'd really like to know how you reach the conclusion of "most families" when we are talking about two ethno-religious minorities, that allegedly were victims of indiscriminate killings, and mass deportations to the Low Lands, North Africa and to the Americas, but end up leaving a gigantic genetic footprint.

At least be coherent.

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#69

Post by zeristor »

WalterBright wrote: post #58
martyvis wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem like the perfect thing to be documented in a GIS. Presumably you could even use high resolution satellite or drone footage to automate much of the data collection. Interview the caretakers in situ recording GPS locations and times. Perfect project for colleges

I bought the Foxfire series of books written by students who went around documenting the old rural ways before that was all lost to time.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/C84/foxfire-series

Re: The Moorish invention that tamed Spain's mountains

#70

Post by narag »

gumby wrote: post #36
narag wrote: post #25

OK, I have nothing bad to say about acequias or irrigation. Having grown up with a big orchad at home I enjoyed watching all those water inventions. Not sure about "Moorish". More like "muslim era" heritage? "Making life possible in one of Europe's driest regions" is misleading though. Eastwards Sierra Nevada you find Almería, where all the Spaghetti Westerns were filmed. It's indeed a desertic zone, just not a very…

> Not sure about "Moorish". IMHO this is one of the few reasonable uses of this term (which has otherwise acquired a negative connotation). The Muslims who colonized Iberia were referred to as Moors because of their Maghreb origin (cf old Mauritania), which itself is the other, technical, use of the term. And given that it’s the BBC I’d give them a pass for correct usage, even if it’s likely few in the audience will…

The Muslims who colonized Iberia were referred to as Moors because of their Maghreb origin (cf old Mauritania)...

That's not the whole truth. Invaders came from far away Arabia, but they were few. From the top of my head, a few thousands.

Roman era Hispania was said to reach a million population. Not sure if that number declined during the Goths' kingdom (that were also a minority themselves) so the Arabians had to recruit 100k warriors of Maghribi origin to help them subjugate the peninsula.

When I hear "Moorish" (I'm Spanish, not an English native speaker, so not sure how they've come with that word) I suspect they're translating "un invento del tiempo de los moros" that would be more precisely translated as "an invention from the time of muslim Spain".

If it was invented here, it was a Spanish invention, no matter what the religion or ethnic group of the author was. If it was brought from outside, it would be interesting to know if it came from Arabia or the Maghreb.

I disagree that "moro" is a bad word in Spanish. It's just descriptive of NW Africa. Those countries are Morocco and Mauritania in English and I don't see their inhabitants protesting the names.

There's a weird projection phenomenom around denomyns: some people attribute ill intentions to perfectly natural names that the addressed people find fine. In Spain, I've heard someone upset about calling "Chinese" to... Chinese people and suggested calling them "Asian" or something like that because "Chinese" is derogatory. WTF?

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