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Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

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Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#61

Post by photochemsyn »

magic_hamster wrote: post #51
i_am_jl wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't been keeping up with the legislation updates, but the FAA's proposal for positional reporting required the drone to report the location of the drone and the pilot . It seems to still be their objective under "Why do we need RemoteID" https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/remote_id/drone_pilo... >Remote ID helps the FAA, law enforcement, and other federal agencies find the control station when a drone appe…

This point came up in another comment, and it's definitely reasonable - but I still don't see why DJI would require your location when using products other than drones, which they do. And as I noted before, they are providing an app which has been axed from the official store. Aside from this, as I'm sure you're aware, any information that DJI collect has a nonzero chance of being handed over the the Chinese authorit…

This is a fairly broad problem across the whole phone app world, isn't it? For example, I bought an iOS app for LAN analysis, but then deleted it when it turned out it wouldn't work unless you gave it access to your physical location (I assume that was for their data marketing side business).

Also, any data information collected by a US company also has 'a nonzero chance of being handed over to the American authorities for any reason whatsoever'.

The only real solution is data protection laws that can be enforced not just by governmental authorities, but also by individual and class-action lawsuits against companies that violate those laws.

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#62

Post by twawaaay »

orangepurple wrote: post #55
aardvarkr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then how would they be able to sell your location data? It’s a crucial revenue stream! /s They do sell a tool to police and governments that allow them to track drone operators. The Ukraine military uses drones extensively to monitor the Russians from the air and assist with artillery accuracy but any time they would launch a dji drone Russia had access to that software and would send an artillery shell to the pi…

Russians, like Ukrainians, and all other government forces in the world, have extensive experience triangulating transmitted signals in warzones. Considering that these drones rely on bidirectional communication, it is obvious where the pilot is without hacking DJI. A drone operator in a warzone appears like an active microwave oven with its door stuck open operating from a deserted area. Militaries can triangulate t…

Exactly.

During WWII the already had radars enough to detect periscopes sticking out of sea surface from tens of miles.

They were also able to triangulate subs by their short transmits anywhere on the Atlantic with pinpoint precision.

People very much underestimate technical military capabilities.

The issues with militaries are of a different kind -- sifting through deluge of information, prioritising, making right inferences, etc., not the ability to spot and triangulate the enemy.

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#63

Post by mynameisvlad »

magic_hamster wrote: post #45
mym1990 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t the GPS on phone be primarily so that the drone knows where to go in case of emergency? I have also used a drone to follow me while on a bicycle or in a car…it seems like the phone would need GPS there as well. Wondering if GPS on the drone would dramatically affect battery life as well?

> where to go in case of emergency In case of emergency, drones just land where they are, or they could try to go back to the point of origin. Depending on the emergency, the drone might lose connection with the operator, in which case your own location is not very useful. I didn't run into emergencies lately but usually as far as I know the operator sets out to retrieve the drone. > Wondering if GPS on the drone wou…

> In case of emergency, drones just land where they are, or they could try to go back to the point of origin. Depending on the emergency, the drone might lose connection with the operator, in which case your own location is not very useful. I didn't run into emergencies lately but usually as far as I know the operator sets out to retrieve the drone.

The default setting on connection loss is "return to home" with hover or land where you are as options. "Home" is a constantly updated location (sent from the controller to the drone) if you move, which, as another person mentioned, is absolutely critical in some scenarios like being on a boat where your position updates constantly.

As another person also mentioned, EU and FCC regulations will also require Remote ID, which broadcasts the drone's and operator's GPS positions. The latter is used if you did something bad and need to be spoken to.

Drone usage is somewhere where location is absolutely needed, especially for critical situations where you want your drone to not be lost forever (and so the government can slap you on the hand in person if you did something bad).

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#64

Post by photochemsyn »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #21

The Ukrainian-Russo war has shown the military the power of offensive drones. You think they are going to allow civilians to own such powerful potential weapons in the future? I think offensive drone warfare is just scratching the surface. I can think of a few modifications to drones, I've yet to see in Ukraine, that could increase their lethality 10x.

They're certainly an optimal delivery device for biological and chemical weapons, and I imagine it's only a matter of time before such programs are revived by various powers, given the current breakdown in international treaty regimes governing what I'd call the four horsepeople of the apocalypse: nuclear, chemical, biological and cyber warfare.

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#65

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #21

The Ukrainian-Russo war has shown the military the power of offensive drones. You think they are going to allow civilians to own such powerful potential weapons in the future? I think offensive drone warfare is just scratching the surface. I can think of a few modifications to drones, I've yet to see in Ukraine, that could increase their lethality 10x.

There is nothing to allow. The cat is already out of the bag. Best you can hope for is regulation, which is what FAA is attempting to do and mitigation ( some companies have ideas on how to counter 'bad' drones ). In a sense, it is no different than it was before. People can still drive cars. People can still use RC toys. And people will do all sorts of horrible things will all manner of technology.

I don't know this, but I suspect we are only seeing some rather selective footage ( as with most warfare propaganda ). Just thinking what one could do with coordinating drones makes me shiver a little.

Still, as a species we are oddly adaptable. Here is to hope permanent drone sky will not become our new normal.

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#66

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

magic_hamster wrote: post #3

They are absolutely right to do this, and private users should be wary as well. DJI's application (Mimo) has been banned from the Android Play Store for some time, with no explanation given by DJI. They offer an APK to side load, which is completely unsupervised, and requires access to your phone's accurate location and other invasive permissions no matter which of their products you are using. This is an important d…

On Android, anything that can broadcast a signal (bluetooth/wifi) require location, at least coarse.

I'm not saying DJI isn't spying on everything but that's probably the reason. This is hilarious in hindsight because for years, you had to give an app call access so they could monitor if a call was incoming (for pausing a game for example)

Edit: It also looks to be a GDPR ban.

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#67

Post by sofixa »

photochemsyn wrote: post #61
magic_hamster wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This point came up in another comment, and it's definitely reasonable - but I still don't see why DJI would require your location when using products other than drones, which they do. And as I noted before, they are providing an app which has been axed from the official store. Aside from this, as I'm sure you're aware, any information that DJI collect has a nonzero chance of being handed over the the Chinese authorit…

This is a fairly broad problem across the whole phone app world, isn't it? For example, I bought an iOS app for LAN analysis, but then deleted it when it turned out it wouldn't work unless you gave it access to your physical location (I assume that was for their data marketing side business). Also, any data information collected by a US company also has 'a nonzero chance of being handed over to the American authoriti…

> This is a fairly broad problem across the whole phone app world, isn't it? For example, I bought an iOS app for LAN analysis, but then deleted it when it turned out it wouldn't work unless you gave it access to your physical location (I assume that was for their data marketing side business).

I don't know how iOS works, but on Android location data permissions are requested for anything involving networking (including Bluetooth, WiFi). Why? Because access to those could be used to estimate where the user is physically located, so gating it behind the location permission is a good way to ensure nobody exploits that. It's not necessarily obvious when you're presented with the permission screen though.

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#68

Post by rlex »

fisian wrote: post #20
mschuster91 wrote: post #6

Now if there were any replacement for DJI I'd be happy... their tech stack is weird AF (e.g. you can only view synchronized flightbooks on your DJI RC controller or on the phone if you're using the sticks-only controller but not on the website or the macOS/Windows companion app, the damn expensive DJI RC controller doesn't do HDMI/DP output, the controllers can't be re-used between drone generations, DJI Fly is only…

There are competitors in EU and US: Skydio and Parrot are the first I can think of, although their products cost more and aren't as consumer focused.

Looks like parrot doesn't sell anafi anymore (only anafi ai which seems to be focused on enterprisey stuff), and skydio, while looking nice, is not foldable. So if you want compact photo/video quad for trips, your choice is pretty limited. Especially if you want to stay below 250g weight. There is Autel Robotics which produces quads similar to DJI, but it's also mainland China company.

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#69

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

photochemsyn wrote: post #61
magic_hamster wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This point came up in another comment, and it's definitely reasonable - but I still don't see why DJI would require your location when using products other than drones, which they do. And as I noted before, they are providing an app which has been axed from the official store. Aside from this, as I'm sure you're aware, any information that DJI collect has a nonzero chance of being handed over the the Chinese authorit…

This is a fairly broad problem across the whole phone app world, isn't it? For example, I bought an iOS app for LAN analysis, but then deleted it when it turned out it wouldn't work unless you gave it access to your physical location (I assume that was for their data marketing side business). Also, any data information collected by a US company also has 'a nonzero chance of being handed over to the American authoriti…

> but then deleted it when it turned out it wouldn't work unless you gave it access to your physical location (I assume that was for their data marketing side business).

In order to use bluetooth or internet access through wireless means you must request location access because it's assumed that you can match a person's location with the access points and bluetooth devices around them (BL beacons). It sucks but Android is semi-right on it. Something that doesn't use wireless means of communication doesn't need location access.

Re: Pentagon Puts DJI on Blacklist

#70

Post by magic_hamster »

photochemsyn wrote: post #61
magic_hamster wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This point came up in another comment, and it's definitely reasonable - but I still don't see why DJI would require your location when using products other than drones, which they do. And as I noted before, they are providing an app which has been axed from the official store. Aside from this, as I'm sure you're aware, any information that DJI collect has a nonzero chance of being handed over the the Chinese authorit…

This is a fairly broad problem across the whole phone app world, isn't it? For example, I bought an iOS app for LAN analysis, but then deleted it when it turned out it wouldn't work unless you gave it access to your physical location (I assume that was for their data marketing side business). Also, any data information collected by a US company also has 'a nonzero chance of being handed over to the American authoriti…

> This is a fairly broad problem

Permission greed is definitely an issue but it's still the choice of every developer, and there are still plenty of apps that do not do this. You were right to refuse using the app if you don't trust it.

> Handed over to the American authorities

At least on paper they need to have a reason, unless the corporation is very accommodating which also happens. But some companies are more strict about this and at least in theory accessing private information is not as easy in western countries. Or so I'd like to believe. I'm not sure in China you can tell the government official to come back when they have a warrant in a meaningful way.

> The only real solution is data protection laws

Sign me up! Unfortunately, the current state of things makes a lot of money for some parties, and legislators don't really have an incentive to do anything about this. However, it sends a very clear message when the Pentagon closes the door on some companies or when certain vendors like Huawei or ZTE are banned altogether.

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