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LaTeX Makes Me Angry

jmtd.net

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Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#61
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is that difficult? Most text editors support word wrapping and syntax highlighting. To add to this, I personally prefer using semantic linefeeds — adding a newline after each sentence or clause (as in e.g. [0] [1]). I find this works exceptionally well with LaTeX, since I get the benefit of the newlines as I write and edit, while the typeset version is formatted nicely into paragraphs for me. (Not that this is…

An additional benefit of this style is that it plays very nicely with version control--diffs are much cleaner than if you have one paragraph per line.

Version control configured for text should not split the text at newlines. It should split at full stops, commas, etc... Ideally it also should understand the hierarchy implied.

The fact that we are using a tool chain built for kernel hacking to version control Text documents is a further problem.

The workflow and presentation of Word or Google Docs in track changes mode is the gold standard here and is what people that edit text for a living actually use. (As much as I hate that fact when I am forced to move my latex documents into their workflows).

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#62

I personally often go to pandoc markdown. Quick translations to latex. Has first class support for latex packages (just include them in your pandoc's header). TeX like syntax for math with `$\delta$` for inline and `$$x=2$$` for newlines. Subscript/Superscript is `CO~2~` and `e=mc^2^`. A very comfy way to work once you get used to it.

This doesn't support citations or macros.

[edit] Maybe I'm referring to the VScode Markdown plugin. Are there editors for the above workflow?

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#63
For programmers today, an option to consider is to use plain TeX directly, by writing in Markdown or whatever, and generating the `.tex` file via a preprocessor program. After all, the facilities that LaTeX was written to provide (automatic section numbering, references, etc) can just as well (or even, more sanely) be done outside the TeX engine.

There is a catch or two:

• Writing the preprocessor will still be a bit of work — I think a promising approach is to use Pandoc, but no one has yet merged a plain TeX writer into the Pandoc repo (https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/4341 — I was briefly interested a couple of years ago, and may look into it again: it doesn't seem like a lot of work honestly).

• The main reason people use LaTeX is because of all the packages in its ecosystem that do various tweaks to the typesetting. (This is also the main problem with LaTeX: TeX itself is good; LaTeX itself is mostly fine; it's the menagerie of packages of varying quality and conflicting effects that cause all the problems that LaTeX users usually complain about.) And in the LaTeX ecosystem, there does not exist a culture of teaching how to do things without the package (just as "You might not need jQuery" is not written by the jQuery authors), so if some LaTeX package looks attractive to you, you're back to LaTeX package hell. I have some ideas here of making it easier to "steal" from a LaTeX package by showing the equivalent "generated" TeX, but they require a bit of work hacking on the TeX engine, and have never got around to it.

Anyway, in the meantime, writing in Markdown and using Pandoc to generate a LaTeX file remains a good approach IMO.

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#64

I write LaTeX documents in VSCode because there's a syntax highlight plugin there for it. If I could, I would write in Sublime Text, because it's faster. However, no Sublime Text plugin for LaTeX exists. Unfortunately, the thing I would like most is a complete replacement for LaTeX that offers these features: * Text-based - no binary file formats * A unique DSL for all features * Complete control over layout and form…

Texmacs could be that thing, depending on your definition of "text-based": https://www.texmacs.org/tmweb/manual/webman-format.en.html

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#65
I'm not nor a TeXnicians nor a TeXpert but I use LaTeX for pretty any formal pdf document I produce, having used it for thesis, reports, letters, business cards, countless of times.

I found hard to read VERY complex graphic code, like PGF/TikZ especially if badly formatted, some complex custom class/packages for specific stuff etc, but not much hard most of the time and most of the time I just write plain LaTeX in a simple style:

- first I write my document in pure formatted text, with LaTeX just for something can't be easily written in text like math or so common typographic elements like an itemize/enumerate, a yasnippet away;

- then I add the rest of the template and check the visual/typesetting aspects while I'm re-read my doc looking for typos, phrases to be better reformulated etc

No need to rebuild so many times and no issue in build time, on a reasonably modern machine is quick enough for essentially all common docs, it might be a very little bit slow not enough to annoy on VERY big special docs who need various works aside anyway not for LaTeX but for mere proofreading and typographic checks.

IMVHO I think that some like the authors came from the uncivilized modern world where well typeset docs are unknown and where people just know WebUIs to click around and quickly produce something prepackaged even if suboptimal and generally bad in quality terms.

I see such behaviors many time where even skilled people do not understand that their docs are graphic heavy crap just because they do not know typography nor typographic conventions of their own country/institution. That's not an issue no LaTeX or other layer (like ConTeXt) can solve, it's a social issue, not a technical one. People should for instance learn why tables should not be like those crappy tables spitted for some spreadsheet tools on a pdf or pages drawn with such crappy margins their favorite "Office Automation" crapplication produce.

In general IMVHO people in the famous "missed CS concepts" courses like the MIT one, typography should be a topic because right now too many do not know how to write on pen and paper BUT also do not know how to write on a desktop, to a level just above the minimum literacy demanded by our society. Not joking nor insulting, that's what I see EVEN from professional publishers.

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#66
post #57

My issue with many Latex replacements is that doing citations is painful: Standard Markdown can't do them. Pandoc makes them really hard and confusing for some reason. VScode's Markdown dialect doesn't support them. Texmacs makes you refresh your document over and over before you see them. With other replacements, I've encountered other problems: VScode's Asciidoc plugin didn't support inline formulas last time I che…

Restructured text cures all ills.

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#67
\LaTeX is a tax on the smart.

Once you have been hazed by it, you will start to defend it: LaTeX drives cognitive dissonance in its users.

Nobody will build the next thing, because LaTeX is free and there are millions of plugins and lots and lots of people with Stockholm syndrome ready to defend it.

I have built documentation systems for clients with LaTeX, but regular developers won't touch it, they know better, so the docs go stale. It's better to use restructured text/html/css, since it has a lot more features than markdown, yet it's simple enough that people who haven't been LaTeX-hazed will use it too.

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#68
post #24

> format the document source for legible reading. Yes, it's the input to the typesetter, and yes, the output of the typesetter needs to be legible. But it's worth making the input easy to read, too. How is that difficult? Most text editors support word wrapping and syntax highlighting. > avoid rebuilding your rendered document too often. It's slow, it takes you out of the activity of writing, and it throws up lots of…

> But then again, the whole point of using something like LaTeX is that you can focus on the text and not how it looks when writing it. Having used LaTeX for a few things. including a PhD thesis, I can say with confidence that this approach just doesn't work for me. I view "how something looks" as being an integral part of what it communicates. The text itself is only part of the package, so not being able to see how…

IMVHO beside plots/formulae/tables etc who are hard to read if just a bit more than deadly simple cases in code, well written pure text AND an outliner (like org-mode or the old CanonCAT etc, now forgotten tools from a more civilized and dead age) are the best way to focus on what you write instead of it's visual aspects.

Visual is part of the package for advertisement, not for scientific/important stuff production. The best example: those who crappy formatting HTML emails not much to embed an image but to really send "rendered text" thinking that's nice and useful instead of visual useless crap...

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#69
post #31

> avoid rebuilding Why not make a CI/CD pipeline and have the document rebuilt with each git commit?

That sounds like a troll, and if it is, it’s a good one because it made me laugh.

I laughed too, at "CI/CD pipeline", but this is actually pretty trivial to do with a git post-commit hook. Literally one line in a shell script.

Re: LaTeX Makes Me Angry

#70
post #24

> format the document source for legible reading. Yes, it's the input to the typesetter, and yes, the output of the typesetter needs to be legible. But it's worth making the input easy to read, too. How is that difficult? Most text editors support word wrapping and syntax highlighting. > avoid rebuilding your rendered document too often. It's slow, it takes you out of the activity of writing, and it throws up lots of…

Give me your thesis source code, I will just remove one bracket from your complex equations Let’s see how many hours you will spend to fix it. The compiler will just tell you “out of memory error” with no line number. Good luck finding it. Latex and its tooling ecosystem are atrocious for productivity. For a type system that promises “just write, forget about formatting” the effort it requires to get document formatt…

IF the code is bad written yes, that's happen. If is well handwritten OR for math generated by come tools, like just a Maxima tex(...) call it not really true except for very complex PGF/TikZ graphics, who happen to be hard anyway on any existing tool...

Honestly I think too many are just in hurry and not care anyway about formatting like "it's an useless waste of time", it's not and we need often time with a tool NOT JUST to produce an output but to reason on what we are writing...

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