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Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

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Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#61

Post by keewee7 »

yucky wrote: post #39
teagoat wrote: post #32

To sum up the article, they claim: * Somebody (probably America) sabotaged the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline. * That's related to the war in Ukraine because? wars are always about resources? * The EU doesn't have any options to replace the gas that needs to come from Russia. * That's going to drive all EU citizens back to an agrarian lifestyle. * And also, the EU is too weak of an institution to defend its citizens. It r…

I'm curious what the alternate theory of Nord 2 sabotage is? Does anybody other than the US benefit?

Why would the US only blow up one of the two Nord Stream 2 pipelines?

Pipeline B of Nord Stream 2 is unscratched and can deliver 30 billion cubic meter of gas per year.

Gazprom now says that two of three "destroyed" pipelines are now in a stable condition hinting that they can be repaired.

Why would the US only destroy 1/4 of the pipelines?

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#62

Post by brabel »

arrrg wrote: post #43
brabel wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged. That's factually incorrect. Germany said before the invasion, and followed through with it, that it would not allow NordStream2 to come into operation if Russia invaded. Listen: Putin did start the war and caused most problems that are causing Europe's energy prices to skyrocket... but how can we just forget the order of event so…

Nordstream 2 is not needed to supply Germany with enough natural gas. It‘s not even open, was never open. Russia decided to cut deliveries (long before February, even) until eventually cutting them completely. Germany‘s stated policy is to buy gas if Russia wants to deliver it.

> Nordstream 2 is not needed to supply Germany with enough natural gas. It‘s not even open, was never open.

Who said it was enough?? What are you responding to?? Also, it was definitely ready to operate since September 2021, and that's why it was full at the time of the explosions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2

> German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who had been in favour of the project,[2] suspended its certification on 22 February 2022

> On November 16, 2021, European natural gas prices rose by 17% after Germany's energy regulator suspended approval of the Nord Stream 2

You can blame Putin for a lot of shit, but on this one, it was all Germany's fault.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#63

Post by yucky »

keewee7 wrote: post #61
yucky wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what the alternate theory of Nord 2 sabotage is? Does anybody other than the US benefit?

Why would the US only blow up one of the two Nord Stream 2 pipelines? Pipeline B of Nord Stream 2 is unscratched and can deliver 30 billion cubic meter of gas per year. Gazprom now says that two of three "destroyed" pipelines are now in a stable condition hinting that they can be repaired. Why would the US only destroy 1/4 of the pipelines?

I'll ignore the fact that you responded to my question with other questions instead, and actually answer yours. It's a proxy war. We're pretending we're not actually at war with Russia and this is all the heroic effort of Ukrainians. So the same reason we don't impose a no-fly zone over parts of Ukraine - we're trying to balance escalation that achieves a goal without escalating too far that there is no return.

Now your turn. Who other than the US benefits from this?

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#64

Post by yucky »

notacoward wrote: post #60
shashurup wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin controls the valves, he doesn't need to blow it up to hurt the Europeans. As it turned out recently it is quite easy to come up with a ton of excuses to stop the supply. With the NS blown there is no leverage anymore. So, IMO this version doesn't hold to scrutiny.

> Putin controls the valves, he doesn't need to blow it up to hurt the Europeans. If the plan is to come in later as the savior of an impoverished Europe then yes, he does need to blow it up. Shutting off the valves makes him the bad guy, and people will remember. Having it blown up by some unknown party, ideally the US, lets him pretend it was all out of his control and he's doing the best he can to help his dear fr…

>Shutting off the valves makes him the bad guy

Nothing in the world could make him not look like the bad guy in the west. Shutting/not shutting valves would change zero opinions of Putin.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#65

Post by notacoward »

yucky wrote: post #64
notacoward wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Putin controls the valves, he doesn't need to blow it up to hurt the Europeans. If the plan is to come in later as the savior of an impoverished Europe then yes, he does need to blow it up. Shutting off the valves makes him the bad guy, and people will remember. Having it blown up by some unknown party, ideally the US, lets him pretend it was all out of his control and he's doing the best he can to help his dear fr…

>Shutting off the valves makes him the bad guy Nothing in the world could make him not look like the bad guy in the west. Shutting/not shutting valves would change zero opinions of Putin.

There's a sucker born every minute, and betting against human gullibility rarely works out well. You'd be amazed how many people can be taken in after a year or two, let alone longer time periods.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#66

Post by moistly »

bitL wrote: post #49
weatherlite wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. Pipes can be reconstructed, peace deals can be made and shut down gas fields can be reopened (looking at you Groningen). > It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if that's even possible. Well if that happens it happens - what's your…

Pipes can't be reconstructed quickly and can be blown up again later. My guess southern hemisphere might have some chance of survival if SHTF so that's where I will be heading. Most people will die gruesome prolonged deaths from starvation, broken bones or radiation, only a fraction will be vaporized instantly.

Are you aware that nukes were set off forty to sixty times a year for two decades? In 1962, 140 nuclear explosions. Over 2000 nukes have gone off.

Two cities have been nuked. They are thriving cities today. The planet has not been blown up. It is not a hellscape. Crops didn’t fail. Even the worst nuclear disasters have had very limited effect beyond their immediate vicinity.

Follow Dory’s advice: keep on swimming. The world is not ending this year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_nuclear_weapons_s...

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#67

Post by bitL »

moistly wrote: post #66
bitL wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pipes can't be reconstructed quickly and can be blown up again later. My guess southern hemisphere might have some chance of survival if SHTF so that's where I will be heading. Most people will die gruesome prolonged deaths from starvation, broken bones or radiation, only a fraction will be vaporized instantly.

Are you aware that nukes were set off forty to sixty times a year for two decades? In 1962, 140 nuclear explosions. Over 2000 nukes have gone off. Two cities have been nuked. They are thriving cities today. The planet has not been blown up. It is not a hellscape. Crops didn’t fail. Even the worst nuclear disasters have had very limited effect beyond their immediate vicinity. Follow Dory’s advice: keep on swimming. Th…

Those nukes went off sequentially, not all at once. Of course spreading effects across many years would lead small effects that could be mostly ignored.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#68

Post by senectus1 »

teagoat wrote: post #32

To sum up the article, they claim: * Somebody (probably America) sabotaged the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline. * That's related to the war in Ukraine because? wars are always about resources? * The EU doesn't have any options to replace the gas that needs to come from Russia. * That's going to drive all EU citizens back to an agrarian lifestyle. * And also, the EU is too weak of an institution to defend its citizens. It r…

  * Somebody (probably America) sabotaged the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline.
Ok that's possible

  * That's related to the war in Ukraine because? wars are always about resources?
Its feesable that its Russia/Ukraine war related

  * The EU doesn't have any options to replace the gas that needs to come from Russia.
This is just wrong. Its just that options are expensive both fiscally and politically. Though some of the options are better for them in the long run by making them green independent. it just takes too long...

  * That's going to drive all EU citizens back to an agrarian lifestyle.
Just a silly notion.

  * And also, the EU is too weak of an institution to defend its citizens.
Also very silly.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#69

Post by twelve40 »

a2tech wrote: post #45
bitL wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't gas from that part of the world unfit for heating/production/food in the EU? I've read that basically Russia buys it all from those countries for their own specific industry/military purposes and then sends their own gas through their pipelines to export them as those countries' own gas.

No, Russia buys it for a song (since they're the only customer) and uses it domestically and possibly sells it along to Europe. I've certainly never heard of the Turkmen gas being unusable for regular purposes. There's a small pipeline to Afghanistan that supplies the border regions (when its running).

this is incorrect, there is a direct pipeline from Turkmenistan to China who buys about 6x more gas from Turkmenistan than Russia.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#70

Post by twelve40 »

a2tech wrote: post #26
gadders wrote: post #8

Is it me, or does he skirt over Europe not working increasing the supply of gas locally? I'm not saying they could replace Russia or the US, but they could almost certainly produce more (whether via fracking or whatever).

I also believe they could get all the gas they ever wanted by building a pipeline through Turkey to Turkmenistan. With this disaster of a war ongoing the Turkmen government might be willing to risk playing ball with Europe.

Yes, replacement is possible in years, as the article says.
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