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Turns are better than radians

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Re: Turns are better than radians

#61

"math never decreed that sine and cosine have to take radian arguments!" This is at best questionable and at worst false. If you only want to use sin and cos as functions for doing trigonometry, it is true that you can choose whatever angle unit you like and stick with it and it will be fine. For most other stuff, e.g. differential equations, complex analysis, signal processing and mechanics, it's pretty much inescap…

Why do they need to be at multiple integers of pi, instead of at half turns?

It's effectively the same, but cos, sin and others are defined with radians as arguments. Taylor's series expansions are changed, otherwise. So is Euler's formula.

Re: Turns are better than radians

#62
post #41

While I agree that "turns" are much more convenient in some applications than radians, there is no need to invent a new terminology. For a long time, including the 19th century, the plane angle measurement unit corresponding with 4 right angles, i.e. a complete rotation around a point, has been named "cycle". That is why in many old physics or engineering books one will find wave numbers measured in "cycles per meter…

> there is no need to invent a new terminology. It's not a new terminology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_(angle)

That page doesn't actually state anywhere when the term 'turns' was actually introduced, the concept yes but not the terminology. As far as I can tell the first references it gives to the term being used is in ISO 80000-3:2006, completed in 2009, although it must have existed earlier because Fred Hoyle appears to have used it and derivatives in 1962. I thought the reference to percentage protractors might be fruitful, but I tracked down the article reference for that from 1922 and it doesn't use the term.

Re: Turns are better than radians

#63
post #32

>But math never decreed that sine and cosine have to take radian arguments! Ummm, actually it did. The Taylor-series of sine and cosine is the simplest when they work with radians. Euler's formula (e^ix = cosx + isinx) is the simplest when working with radians. Of course you can work in other units, but you'll need to insert the appropriate scaling factors all over the place. "Turns" don't generalize to higher dimens…

The simplicity of the Taylor series of sine and cosine is irrelevant, there are no important applications for those series.

There is only one consequence of those series that matters in practice, which is that when the angles are expressed in radians, for very small angles the angle, its sinus and its tangent are approximately equal.

While this relationship between small angles, sinuses and tangents looks like an argument pro radians, in practice it isn't. There are no precise methods for measuring an angle in radians. All angle measurements are done using an unit that is an integer divisor of a right angle, and then the angles in radian are computed using a multiplication with a number proportional with the reciprocal of Pi.

So the rule about the approximate equality of angles, sinuses and tangents is at best a mnemonic rule, because to apply the rule one must convert the measured angles into radians, so no arithmetic operations can be saved.

"Turns" generalize perfectly to higher dimensions.

To the 3 important units for the plane angle, i.e. right angle, cycle and radian, there are 3 corresponding units for the solid angle, i.e. the right trihedron (i.e. an octant of a sphere), the sphere and the steradian.

The ratio between the right trihedron and the steradian is the same as between the right angle and the radian, i.e. (Pi / 2).

The ratio between the sphere and the right trihedron is 2^3, while that between cycle and right angle is 2^2. In N dimensions the ratio between the corresponding angle units becomes 2^N.

Moreover, while in 2 dimensions there are a few cases when the radian is useful, in 3 dimensions the steradian is really useless. Its use in photometry causes a lot of multiplications or divisions by Pi that have no useful effect.

There is only one significant advantage of the radian, which is the same as for using the Neper as a logarithmic unit, the derivative of the exponential with the logarithms measured in Nepers is the same function as the primitive, and that has as a consequence similarly simple relationships between the trigonometric functions with arguments measured in radians and their derivatives.

Everywhere else where the radian is convenient is a consequence of the invariance of the exponential function under derivation, when the Neper and radian units are used.

This invariance is very convenient in the symbolic manipulation of differential equations, but it does not translate into simpler computations when numeric methods are used.

So the use of the radian can simplify a lot many pen and paper symbolic transformations, but it is rarely, if ever, beneficial in numeric algorithms.

Re: Turns are better than radians

#64
post #32

>But math never decreed that sine and cosine have to take radian arguments! Ummm, actually it did. The Taylor-series of sine and cosine is the simplest when they work with radians. Euler's formula (e^ix = cosx + isinx) is the simplest when working with radians. Of course you can work in other units, but you'll need to insert the appropriate scaling factors all over the place. "Turns" don't generalize to higher dimens…

I already learnt in school to calculate trigonometry using radians or turns depending on the situation. It was part of the general math curriculum in Bavaria. As far as I am aware both are mathematically sound and there is no reason to religiously use one of them over the other. Let your use-case or input parameters decide. The examples given in the article definitely make no sense in radians.

Re: Turns are better than radians

#65
post #55
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, it is a funny way to say it. Computationally, we all only ever work with approximations, but when doing mathematics, pi is exact all the way out to the infinity-th digit. To multiply by pi (or any irrational, but particularly transcendental) in a pure mathematical context is to audaciously specify an infinitely long computational process. It is dizzying to contemplate, almost mystical. Sort of like modular ari…

Is any number mod infinity equal to itself?

In the surreal numbers [1], the definition of division and hence modulo applies to all numbers, finite and infinite alike. And for any finite number -omega [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number

Re: Turns are better than radians

#66

While I agree that "turns" are much more convenient in some applications than radians, there is no need to invent a new terminology. For a long time, including the 19th century, the plane angle measurement unit corresponding with 4 right angles, i.e. a complete rotation around a point, has been named "cycle". That is why in many old physics or engineering books one will find wave numbers measured in "cycles per meter…

Just wait until you find out what cosmologists do with ALL the fundamental constants.

https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2205:_Types_of_Ap...

Re: Turns are better than radians

#67
post #32

>But math never decreed that sine and cosine have to take radian arguments! Ummm, actually it did. The Taylor-series of sine and cosine is the simplest when they work with radians. Euler's formula (e^ix = cosx + isinx) is the simplest when working with radians. Of course you can work in other units, but you'll need to insert the appropriate scaling factors all over the place. "Turns" don't generalize to higher dimens…

The writer don’t seem to realise that radian is not an arbitrary unit but a dimensionless one which is defined so that 1rad is actually just 1.

Reading the submission and the comments here, I’m under the impression that trigonometry is not extensively taught in middle schools and high schools in the USA. While I’m slightly envious you might not have to suffer developing powers of cosine and sine but that would explain the lack of familiarity with radian I see here. Am I wrong?

Re: Turns are better than radians

#68
post #32

>But math never decreed that sine and cosine have to take radian arguments! Ummm, actually it did. The Taylor-series of sine and cosine is the simplest when they work with radians. Euler's formula (e^ix = cosx + isinx) is the simplest when working with radians. Of course you can work in other units, but you'll need to insert the appropriate scaling factors all over the place. "Turns" don't generalize to higher dimens…

sin(x) ~~ x only in radians, so honestly that's reason enough. Once in a while we get programmers wanting to disrupt mathematical notation for whatever reason... Worst I've seen so far was one arguing that equations should be written with long variable names (like in programming) instead of single letters and Greek letters. Using turns because it's a little easier in specific programming cases is just as short-sighte…

That's only for small angles though (stems from Taylor's expansion). With other units, you have a conversion factor, but it remains true enough at small angles.

Re: Turns are better than radians

#70
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and the derivative of sin(x) is ... ?

Right - there's a negotiation in terms of complexity. The coefficient baggage has to go somewhere. For me I don't want to care which units I use (and I'm rarely inspecting the exact angle as a number) - consistency is most important. I'm rarely interested in the precise numerical value of an angle - it's just a thing in the graphics/physics pipeline somewhere. I don't know if that makes me agnostic about this proposa…

When you store a value that will be reused, like in an array of points, if every time you walk the array multiplying by a constant, you should seek to store values in such a way that it does not need that treatment. If you are taking sin and cos each time through (presumably, added to some angle), it should be pre-multiplied for the fastest implementation of sin and cos available.
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