Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

inc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 71 posts

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#61

Post by mwd_ »

kerryfalk wrote: post #55
geebee wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any idea why coders are paid so much less? Is it because all professionals are paid less (ie., are lawyers, physicians, etc all paid less in Canada)? Or is this more of a regional pattern combined with a cost of living (ie., coders are paid less in Wisconsin than in California, but might live better on what they do earn)? Or is it maybe related to productivity, that coders in these concentrated areas are…

I can't answer this question with a very high level of confidence for all of Canada (I'm based out of the prairies) but my current feeling is simply that the quality of the positions are lacking, as the parent has pointed out. There's a view that programmers are code monkeys. If looked at from the perspective of a manager within the manufacturing industry (Many of Canada's high net worth individuals, especially in my…

I've chosen to stay in Vancouver for personal reasons. I like it here but it's not much fun to see friends find only mediocre opportunities locally and then end up in Mountain View making ~six figures. Unfortunately as mentioned above this creates a sorting process where the best and brightest leave.

There is a growing startup scene here, but the cost of living hurts -- this is the land of $60-70K salaries and million dollar houses. Real estate costs are such that the startups mostly seem to end up around the drug-addled Downtown Eastside, which can be interesting to say the least. Vancouver's a nice city but it's also kind of crazy.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#62

Post by kevinqualters »

nirvana wrote: post #23

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade…

"Also, I've studied economics and been watching the economic situation. I've come to understand the real nature of the federal reserve and the fiat currency of the USA. The USA benefited greatly from Bretton Woods alls these decades, but a side effect of that is that the inflation that has existed in the dollar supply has been exported to other countries, giving americans an artificially better standard of living. This in itself is not bad, but it and our debtor economy are dependent on that money being kept out of the system by being locked up in vaults and pocketbooks and accounts of foreigners who want it because they think the dollar is a strong currency. Given the fact that our economy is faltering, but more importantly our government is spending like crazy (obama is worse than bush who was worse than clinton who was worse than bush who was worse than the very bad reagan who was worse than carter, it just goes on...) eventually they are going to be inflating so fast that the dollar loses its reserve status, and at that point, it won't matter that the US government is inflating because people will start dumping their dollars. We'll start seeing the effect of all those previous years inflation that was exported realized in the dollars in a rather short time. This is not a black swan event, it happens regularly, just not often enough that people remember its possible. But because of bretton woods, it will be much worse for the usa than, say, argentina."

This entire paragraph is horseshit and is what happens when your knowledge of economics comes from reading random shit on the internet. I'd start to tell you why you are wrong but it's so far from the truth it's "not even wrong."

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#63

Post by danneu »

8bitpal wrote: post #8
danneu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along with the answer to your question that someone may provide you, perhaps also change, adventure, and rocking the boat? Mixing a little bit of life experience in with entrepreneurial endeavors? I'm only 23, but those reasons compel me.

Very true. Would it compel to leave permanently though? I left my country of birth for the reasons you stated but I guess somewhere in the back of my head I see myself returning one day.

I don't think I could leave permanently. And I can't see myself rescinding my American passport. Very circumstantial extremes.

Even travel writer Paul Theroux, having spent most of his life abroad, said that nothing will ever replace home and its familiarity.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#64

Post by potatolicious »

geebee wrote: post #51
potatolicious wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian expat here. You missed one thing: a dramatically smaller talent pool. The brain drain for coders from Canada to the USA is immense . It's not a trickle, it's a full-on broken dam. I'm making easily double here what I would in Canada, even if you account for tax and cost of living. Software engineers, in general, simply don't get paid well in Canada. The ease of securing a TN visa also means that there is eff…

Do you have any idea why coders are paid so much less? Is it because all professionals are paid less (ie., are lawyers, physicians, etc all paid less in Canada)? Or is this more of a regional pattern combined with a cost of living (ie., coders are paid less in Wisconsin than in California, but might live better on what they do earn)? Or is it maybe related to productivity, that coders in these concentrated areas are…

I have some theories, but not a lot of proof - as is the case when arguing the effects of policy.

If you look at the job openings in software in Canada, you will find a lot of US satellite offices hiring. Adobe, Autodesk, Apple, IBM, Microsoft, et al all have significant presence across Canada, but the pay for Canadian positions is inevitably far, far less than their American counterparts.

Part of it is the lack of entrepreneurialism in the field, I think. Because of the lack of startups, and the lacklustre VC scene, the industry doesn't have lot of domestic legs to stand on. A huge part of the software industry's identity in Canada is "like America, but cheaper" - there aren't enough homegrown companies to counter this trend.

The software jobs are also dominated by fields where it's a cost centre, not R&D. The biggest employers of software engineers in Canada are banks and telcos, not "pure" software companies. In this environment, the majority of openings are IT monkey jobs, not high-level engineering positions.

There's a lot of talent coming out of Canada, the majority don't stay though, and they won't so long as the US offers more interesting jobs that pay double, triple the Canadian rate. More professional satisfaction, way more money? I'm not made of stone!

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#65

Post by ftwinnovations »

kevinqualters wrote: post #62
nirvana wrote: post #23

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade…

"Also, I've studied economics and been watching the economic situation. I've come to understand the real nature of the federal reserve and the fiat currency of the USA. The USA benefited greatly from Bretton Woods alls these decades, but a side effect of that is that the inflation that has existed in the dollar supply has been exported to other countries, giving americans an artificially better standard of living. Th…

Sorry kevinqualters but it sounds like you need to spend some time researching what he brought up before you call it horseshit. You had no specific examples why it's wrong because, well, obviously you don't know what actually is right.

But trust me, like you, I sure would prefer he were wrong...

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#66

Post by waqf »

nirvana wrote: post #36
acabal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. I'm not trying to start a business though, I've happily self-employed with my own website for a few years now. (Though not earning the 60,000 euros suggested by that link.) I'm mainly just looking for a residency permit... i.e., I'm not going to work in Germany, I just don't want immigration getting angry when I try to leave ~12 months later.

The netherlands and america have a treaty called the Ducth American Friendship Treaty. Under it, you can get residency in the Netherlands by putting something like 10-12k Euros into a bank (or starting a business with that much value, you'd need a lawyer to navigate the details.) At any rate, as an american citizen you have a sort of inroads to getting residency in the Netherlands. Under this treaty, so long as you m…

Hmm, does this work the other way too? Can any EU citizen claim residency in the Netherlands, then use this to get U.S. residency for a small deposit?

If not, isn't this a somewhat unequal treaty?

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#67

Post by kevinqualters »

ftwinnovations wrote: post #65
kevinqualters wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Also, I've studied economics and been watching the economic situation. I've come to understand the real nature of the federal reserve and the fiat currency of the USA. The USA benefited greatly from Bretton Woods alls these decades, but a side effect of that is that the inflation that has existed in the dollar supply has been exported to other countries, giving americans an artificially better standard of living. Th…

Sorry kevinqualters but it sounds like you need to spend some time researching what he brought up before you call it horseshit. You had no specific examples why it's wrong because, well, obviously you don't know what actually is right. But trust me, like you, I sure would prefer he were wrong...

no false it is this libertarian circlejerk that is so prevalent among technophiles on the internet that has it all wrong. every single modern currency is fiat, and the us does not somehow magically benefit from this fact. the us was able to reach the economic position it has from a combination of unique factors that largely stem from ww2. but what he wrote is so incredibly wrong and nothing but sensationalist rhetoric. all countries are going to be facing issues moving forward, mostly revolving around how to deal with the negative externalities that arise from 1) automation 2) the resulting increases in productivity. People who don't understand modern economics have been screaming that inflation is inevitable since bretton woods, but it is not going to come. the us will be fine, and will still be the world's second largest economy in 2030.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#68

Post by protez »

It’s true that South Korean start-up scene is getting better from the interest of institutional funds, which got up from the apparent success of the Grouponzi-style businesses, esp. TicketMonster. But it’s a whole lot different story that the Americans return here because Seoul is a better place for start-ups. The M&A market for Internet start-ups in Seoul is almost non-existent, except few cases like TM, and TNC, the only acquisition Google made in South Korea. I don’t understand how this ecosystem would persist without deals any longer.

As a side note, the Shin in the article is a family member of the “big brother” Chaebol, Samsung Group, which has close knots with big conglomerates such as CJ Group, Joongang Ilbo, Shinsegae, and more, almost to the extent of their aggregate revenue reaching almost a half of South Korea GDP, so he earned attractive deals from big local brands so easily. Shin wan’t irrational enough not to exploit his family connections to build a business based on a totally unprofitable model, a feat only possible at the right moment and right place. Definitely, he’s a smart guy, smart enough being ready to return if he no longer sees his advantages here in Seoul, which I think would be quite unlikely though, due to his superb “Zuck status” in S. Korea.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#69

Post by edelweiss »

nirvana wrote: post #23

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade…

It made sense for entrepreneurs to leave the U.S. since 2003 (when I moved my family of 5 to Vienna Austria), so it's already too late (not so easy to renounce US Citizenship now, new draconian financial reporting laws for expats and new laws which prevent taking assets out of the country kick in 2013). In 2013 I will renounce my US Citizenship to gain Austrian Citizenship. I have thought long and hard about this. I am proud of the principles the US was founded on, which are trampled on each and every day in Congress, by the President, and in the Supreme Court. I am proud of those who sacrificed for the good of our country, who sacrificed to preserve those rights and to bestow them on me upon my birth. Those sacrifices are dishonored and spit upon daily by our politicians, and their kleptocrat corporate owners. I will always love the United States, and the majority of it's honorable, kind, and caring people. However I have no love of this totalitarian nightmare which is our government. Our government is illegitimate, despicable, and dishonorable. "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government and provide new guards for their future security." People don't talk that way anymore. Beautiful, huh? - No idea what you said. - It means, if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action. " National Treasure - 2004 "Because you are the president of USA, sir. Whether it is to your character ... Of the oath that you have taken To the Constitution to protect. Of the weight of history That rests on your shoulders. I believe you Are an honorable man, sir. Gates, that sort of thing People do not believe anymore. They want to believe in it." National Treasure Book of Secrets - 2007 Getting a VISA in Austria is straightforward, and Vienna is the best city in the world for quality of life (Mercer 2009, 2010, 2011).

Rules for Migrating to Austria Red-White-Red VISA http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanent....

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#70

Post by beefman »

mchafkin wrote: post #33
beefman wrote: post #22

Yet another article written for the pleasure of its author. Just tell us what data you have and how they answer the question in your (leading) headline. Three sentences and a table; done.

I take exception to this point--You want a table? Make a table--But so you know: There are very few stats on reverse migration because the U.S. government stopped tracking it in 1957. There have been some really great studies academic studies, if you're interested in checking them out. http://www.kauffman.org/research-and-policy/immigration-and-... But even these studies are pretty small and fairly limited. Definitel…

Your comment would have been an excellent alternative to the article; I'm not sure why you're taking exception.
Post reply on HN