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> as if the author has any insight into God's design or conceptions Does anybody? Assuming the Abrahamic God exists, the last information we have about them is over 2000 years old. What if they've changed their mind on stuff like murder or mixing fabrics?
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> as if the author has any insight into God's design or conceptions Does anybody? Assuming the Abrahamic God exists, the last information we have about them is over 2000 years old. What if they've changed their mind on stuff like murder or mixing fabrics?
Denying the revelations to Muhammed? Cringe.
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There are numerous cases of changes to "sexual orientation".
Would you mind providing citations of some of these cases?
It is trivial to search for examples. There have been entire organizations of individuals claiming successful change of their sexual lifestyle. The problem is that you have a whole host of individuals and organizations who are opposed to the very concept of being able to change due to their assumptions and presuppositions about God and sin. This leads them to attempt to smear or discredit any movement or attitude that opposes their own.
In my opinion, the onus of proof is on the communities, organizations, and individuals pushing the "born this way" rhetoric. In the 1990s and into the 2000s we were told there was a "gay gene" or that the right combination of hormones in utero was the culprit. It is now 2022 and no such 'smoking gun' has been found, yet there are still persons claiming they are no longer homosexual through the power of God.This is despite the media vitriol against such claims and the illegalization of even benign therapy. The naturalistic position claims the scientists just need more time and eventually they will find that people are born along some sexual spectrum instead of the traditional biblical position that sexuality and even attraction is behavioral.
Sorry to not give you what you are asking for directly, but I'm not interested in debating the validity of specific incidents over HN. You might have good luck discussing the issue with a competent Christian theologian or pastor.
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Are you suggesting that God is completely opposed to everything we value?
In fact, I am certain every inclination of the human heart is evil from birth.
That doesn't appear to check out biblicaly, or from any logical perspective I can think of.
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Would you mind providing citations of some of these cases?
I would mind. I can tell you that I have personal connections to persons who have abandoned their so called "sexual orientation". It is trivial to search for examples. There have been entire organizations of individuals claiming successful change of their sexual lifestyle. The problem is that you have a whole host of individuals and organizations who are opposed to the very concept of being able to change due to thei…
Conversion therapy is not benign. Your phrasing here leads me to suspect that the personal connections you refer to are people who learned that it is easier to lie to those they know, and sometimes even themselves, than to take other options.
I hope for their sake that I am wrong.
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I would mind. I can tell you that I have personal connections to persons who have abandoned their so called "sexual orientation". It is trivial to search for examples. There have been entire organizations of individuals claiming successful change of their sexual lifestyle. The problem is that you have a whole host of individuals and organizations who are opposed to the very concept of being able to change due to thei…
> and the illegalization of even benign therapy. Conversion therapy is not benign. Your phrasing here leads me to suspect that the personal connections you refer to are people who learned that it is easier to lie to those they know, and sometimes even themselves, than to take other options. I hope for their sake that I am wrong.
And yes, you are wrong.
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> and the illegalization of even benign therapy. Conversion therapy is not benign. Your phrasing here leads me to suspect that the personal connections you refer to are people who learned that it is easier to lie to those they know, and sometimes even themselves, than to take other options. I hope for their sake that I am wrong.
Not all conversion therapy is benign. If you are talking about using shock therapy then we are in agreement. That's not really what I'm talking about. Counseling could be an example of benign therapy - depending on the context. And yes, you are wrong.
Even counseling based conversion therapy is not benign. It would get your license revoked as a therapist in most places (in the US, not familiar with other places) well before it was illegal. The problem with counseling based conversion therapy is it relies on guilt and manipulation of the person involved.
> And yes, you are wrong.
I'm afraid that you are one of the people they would be lying to in this case, and thus I cannot take your word on this. To be clear, this is not an indictment of you, just based on what I have seen of similar situations in my life.
For context - I am an LGTBQ+ member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who has spoken and worked with lot's of cishet and lgbt people from my church and others. If you want to discuss more directly, my email is open, though I'm not always able to respond quickly. I also get a lot of spam at that address, so if you email please let me know here as well.
Edit: If you would prefer to discuss here so that the discussion stays public, I am also open to that. I know people who prefer either way.
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> and the illegalization of even benign therapy. Conversion therapy is not benign. Your phrasing here leads me to suspect that the personal connections you refer to are people who learned that it is easier to lie to those they know, and sometimes even themselves, than to take other options. I hope for their sake that I am wrong.
Not all conversion therapy is benign. If you are talking about using shock therapy then we are in agreement. That's not really what I'm talking about. Counseling could be an example of benign therapy - depending on the context. And yes, you are wrong.
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Not all conversion therapy is benign. If you are talking about using shock therapy then we are in agreement. That's not really what I'm talking about. Counseling could be an example of benign therapy - depending on the context. And yes, you are wrong.
> Counseling could be an example of benign therapy Even counseling based conversion therapy is not benign. It would get your license revoked as a therapist in most places (in the US, not familiar with other places) well before it was illegal. The problem with counseling based conversion therapy is it relies on guilt and manipulation of the person involved. > And yes, you are wrong. I'm afraid that you are one of the…
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Sorry you had to go through that. Christianity is so fucked up. I was raised Catholic and wasn't allowed to have long hair or dress myself or play flute in band etc. because it would turn me gay, heavily physically abused on a near-nightly basis, yada yada. No Pokemon or Harry Potter. Solidarity, friend.
I was raised Catholic, and none of that happened. You were raised by a lunatic.
Before dismissing my experiences and perspective, you would do well to question your own experiences and perspective.
Perhaps you were raised thinking you were Catholic, but I was raised according to what the Church actually peddles. I was deeply involved. Mass every Sunday morning, beatings on Sunday night (most nights, actually), religious education every week, forced participation in youth group and anti-humanitarian protests.
My traumatic and abusive experience is indistinguishable from a cult, and your effort to discredit my experience of the Catholic faith, intentional or not, is extremely harmful to me and others who have suffered.
And when I refused to be confirmed into the faith at 15? I was dropped on the streets and made homeless for years, just barely etching out a high school diploma despite my circumstances. That's the Catholic institution. Anti-education and anti-humanitarian at its core.