Interesting that it was a German law. I was under the impression that German law was pretty conservative on data collection.
Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
61–70 of 178 posts
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#62Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm
The fact that a court overturns a law is proof that our democracy actually works. No need to be 'verdrossen'. It would be worse if the courts just approves all laws the government conceives.
Some bad laws aren't overturned
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#63Is Germany a sovereign country if an international court presides over them? This tends to get brushed aside by people defending the EU. Isn't this a step in the direction of the EU becoming something like the United States? There tends to be a lot of double-speak on this: "That's not true" and "it's a good thing" at the same time.
Any country that signs any form of international agreement is giving away part of its sovereignty in exchange of some benefit. It is just a matter of degrees.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#64Interesting that it was a German law. I was under the impression that German law was pretty conservative on data collection.
In general, yes, and I think Germans are (at least in theory) much more protective of their data than others. Nonetheless, every government since the late 00s has been trying to push this through in one form or another.
I suspect there is heavy lobbying from within the professional bureaucracy (including police and IC) for this. Possibly also diplomatic pressure from countries like the US.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#65Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm
From 51:25 in this BBC documentary [0] you're introduced to Horst Herold [1] the President of the BKA (Federal police) who instigated the creation of the Suchsystem Inpol sowie Analysen [2] to catch the Baader Meinhoff gang by trawling citizens data. Until the violence of the Baader Meinhoff gang, there was sufficient popular sentiment including in politics, against any Federal use of power as prohibited by the const…
Don't forget the part Peter Urbach played as agent provocateur in
the Red Army Faction.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Urbach
Or later the Celle Hole
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#66Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm
Political apathy comes from the political party that would most benefit from low turnout. If you are disappointed with politics that is a reason to vote. If you don't care, that's a valid reason not to vote
> Political apathy comes from the political party that would most benefit from low turnout.
This is very reductive, you've lost sight of the trees and only see the forest. Politically apathetic people have a wide array of personal reasons for being the way they are. You don't know what's going on in all of their lives, you can't reduce all of their life experiences and feelings into one big conspiracy.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#67Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm
The fact that a court overturns a law is proof that our democracy actually works. No need to be 'verdrossen'. It would be worse if the courts just approves all laws the government conceives.
The issue is, that the process to overturn a law takes years, but introducing the same law (with a slightly different paint) again takes months.
Or for some reductio ad absurdum: Slavery is legal for 10 months per year, but every October the Slavery Legalization law gets struck down by the courts, proof that our democracy works.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, since I live in Switzerland, I am happy to disagree. Swiss people vote on many things multiple times per year and consider this a fundamental right and this the way it should be.
A sufficient majority of citizens can change the constitution and take that right away from you. Because you live in a democratic state, you do not have sovereign rights.
Just the same; sufficient number of states can take those 'sovereign rights' away from a country. In the context of a discussion about Germany, shouldn't this be obvious?
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Political apathy comes from the political party that would most benefit from low turnout. If you are disappointed with politics that is a reason to vote. If you don't care, that's a valid reason not to vote
Is there not a limit case? Would you tell people in China, "if you are disappointed with politics, vote in your People's Congress elections?"
Assuming there's a choice, I'm not familiar with Chinese elections, then yes.
Why not vote? What is the advantage of that?
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#70Is the ECJ kind of a Supreme Court that can overturn member state laws and rulings? I had the impression member states were 100% sovereign within the EU...
Who is 100% sovereign? Any kind of treaty makes you less "sovereign". I believe it's the same question about freedom. Are you a free person if you have a job, pay mortgage or marry someone?
> Who is 100% sovereign?
100%? Only those with a nuclear deterrent, and maybe not even them. Otherwise, there is always a bigger fish.
Edit: I can see some people don't believe me. Do you really think treaties are more than paper if you don't have force to back them up? The US has threatened to invade the Hague if they try to charge Americans with war crimes. Went beyond mere threats in fact, congress and Bush the younger enshrined this threat in Federal Law.