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South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

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Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#61

Post by Animats »

1-more wrote: post #30
nullc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

81% of the Madoff losses were recovered (not including funds paid for taxes on false gains), not so in the land of "web3", "defi", and "ico". Through innovative meta-scam-blockchain technology they manage to "accidentally" substantially all the monies.

I'm trying to square this with the info on the Wikipedia page. Is this just "The Madoff Recovery Initiative reported $14.418 billion in total recoveries and settlement agreementse" divided by "of which $17.3 billion was actually invested by customers?" If so that's even better at north of 83%.

Madoff recovery amounts are based on how much cash the investor put in, not what their statement said their balance was just before the crash. So long-term holders get none of their supposed profits. The longer someone invested with Madoff, the more they lost.

The recovery project is only for direct investors with Madoff. Those who bought into "feeder funds" which fed into Madoff's fund don't get anything directly. There's other litigation involving feeder funds, which can recover something from the Madoff recovery and pay it out to their holders.

The recovery initiative got back billions of dollars through clawback lawsuits, where they went after people who'd cashed out of Madoff's scheme before the crash. Those people were effectively participants in the scam, and they profited from it, so they don't get away free.

If you can track the money, you can un-do a Ponzi. The amount of legal effort is huge, though.

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#62

Post by [deleted] »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24
Garvi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the point. But why is that?

> why is that? The web3/crypto community seems to select for individuals with an almost proud ignorance of the law and state power. The same personality that can make a 21st-century gold bug pitch ( e.g. a world on crypto is one without wars, Bitcoin is impossible to ban, or Luna is magically stable et cetera ) is one that reacts to an arrest warrant by no showing and tweeting.

[deleted]

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#63

Post by Animats »

paxys wrote: post #60
cm2187 wrote: post #3

I naively thought that it would take centuries of inflation before seeing ponzi schemes beating the magnitude of Madoff, it only took 10 years.

The vast majority of Madoff's victims were middle class pensioners who had their entire lives upended because their fund managers trusted the wrong person. In this case it's hard to feel any sympathy for crypto speculators.

By number, maybe. By dollars, no.

Madoff's core operation was based on scamming rich Jews in New York City, Palm Beach, Florida, and Hollywood. In each location, he had a prominent Jewish leader steering investors to his fund. Ezra Merkin handled New York, Stanley Chais handled Hollywood, and Madoff himself worked the Palm Beach Country Club. This was very much an in-person scam. A long list of celebrities lost big.

That's why the recovery operation was so long, so extensive and so successful. The major victims were well connected, could afford expensive lawyers, and collectively, they had a lot of clout.

The crypto world tends to have less well connected suckers.

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#64

Post by ipaddr »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #52
lexapro wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central banks definitely don't own gold because it's such a useful commodity. Are central banks gold bugs?

> Central banks definitely don't own gold because it's such a useful commodity. Are central banks gold bugs? Are central banks retail investors? Are they buying gold to "to free the world or whatever"? No [1]? Gold and silver have deep precedence as money. This leads to them trading as haven assets, i.e. their price rises when financial conditions deteriorate. Bitcoin doesn't. It trades as a risk asset, i.e. its pric…

"Gold and silver have deep precedence as money"

Bitcoin has that rep as well.

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#65

Post by nullc »

ericjang wrote: post #20
nullc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

81% of the Madoff losses were recovered (not including funds paid for taxes on false gains), not so in the land of "web3", "defi", and "ico". Through innovative meta-scam-blockchain technology they manage to "accidentally" substantially all the monies.

s/substantially/sublimate ?

I think I intended to say they accidentally the whole money. But substantially gives substantially the same feel.

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#66

Post by ipaddr »

Scoundreller wrote: post #51
lexapro wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, it's kinda funny that you mention gold bugs. Because gold shares a lot of properties with Bitcoin, and therefore should be considered a sham by most of HN. Yet somehow it sits currently at $1,670/oz and is owned by all major central banks in the world.

We could argue (and agree) that Canada isn’t major, but their central bank sold off their bullion gold reserves ~ 2 decades ago. And finished off its hodl of gold coins ~7 years ago. https://www.kitco.com/news/2022-05-26/Gold-is-an-antique-ins... https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gold-canada-reserves-1.3443...

Canada did it to increase diversity of investment "investing in financial assets that are easily tradable and that have deep markets of buyers and sellers"

The truth is probably based on the money they received from selling the gold as a retail coin

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#67

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ipaddr wrote: post #64
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Central banks definitely don't own gold because it's such a useful commodity. Are central banks gold bugs? Are central banks retail investors? Are they buying gold to "to free the world or whatever"? No [1]? Gold and silver have deep precedence as money. This leads to them trading as haven assets, i.e. their price rises when financial conditions deteriorate. Bitcoin doesn't. It trades as a risk asset, i.e. its pric…

"Gold and silver have deep precedence as money" Bitcoin has that rep as well.

> Bitcoin has that rep as well

No, it doesn’t. The evidence is crypto trading as a risk asset. People believe it could one day trade as a haven asset, but that hasn’t happened yet. Not close.

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#68

Post by Cd00d »

Animats wrote: post #63
paxys wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of Madoff's victims were middle class pensioners who had their entire lives upended because their fund managers trusted the wrong person. In this case it's hard to feel any sympathy for crypto speculators.

By number, maybe. By dollars, no. Madoff's core operation was based on scamming rich Jews in New York City, Palm Beach, Florida, and Hollywood. In each location, he had a prominent Jewish leader steering investors to his fund. Ezra Merkin handled New York, Stanley Chais handled Hollywood, and Madoff himself worked the Palm Beach Country Club. This was very much an in-person scam. A long list of celebrities lost big.…

Your point would not be weakened if you left ethnicity out of it, but risks coming across as un-credible and conspiracy driven with the addition. I'd recommend an edit.

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#69

Post by freen »

notch656a wrote: post #38
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the problem with that is what? Generally: if you’re trying to fix something, understanding how it works is usually a good start. Specifically: pompous ignorance leads to gross negligence and criminality so stupidly brazen a B-list editor would send it back for being unbelievable. The sort that is rampant in crypto/web3.

>Generally: if you’re trying to fix something, Yes the fix is clear to me. Remove KYC+AML from the banking/monetary system. The expansion of crypto is in part a response to a pompous ignorance of government officials, attempting to impose a search of your papers merely for banking and the government implementing policies so stupid even a B-list editor wouldn't believe it. The government failed so other actors came in…

Chesterton’s fence fail.

Re: South Korean prosecutors say Do Kwon 'obviously on the run', asks Interpol help

#70

Post by aaaaaaaaata »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #43
lexapro wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, it's kinda funny that you mention gold bugs. Because gold shares a lot of properties with Bitcoin, and therefore should be considered a sham by most of HN. Yet somehow it sits currently at $1,670/oz and is owned by all major central banks in the world.

> gold shares a lot of properties with Bitcoin, and therefore should be considered a sham by most of HN Gold and gold buggery are separate. Gold and silver have deep precedence as money. They're also useful commodities. Gold buggery involves retail investors disproportionately allocating to gold as a buy-and-hold asset, often with emotional attachment. Those buying crypto because it's going to free the world or whate…

> gold buggery

This could be an interesting thread in itself.

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