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Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

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Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#61
post #59
post #58

Honest question since I'm not in the loop: what is the problem with passwords that passkeys are trying to solve?

Passwords can be reused and stored on remote servers, if one is compromised, those password are now out there. Passkeys are asymmetric so the actual key is only stored in your keychain and the UX basically prevents reuse

Thanks. I'm still not following 100%, though. Is the problem that some providers foolishly store users' passwords in clear text, or that some providers allow passwords whose hashes are easy to reverse?

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#62
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using "limited resources" while talking about Apple is surely a joke, right?

You should read the Mythical Man-Month. You can't just add unlimited developers to a project and expect it to be productive or sustainable. No different at Meta, Spotify, Netflix etc.

I don’t see how an extra program built for windows or linux can in any way stall whatever project limits Apple faces for macos. They’re effectively independent projects.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#63
post #61
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passwords can be reused and stored on remote servers, if one is compromised, those password are now out there. Passkeys are asymmetric so the actual key is only stored in your keychain and the UX basically prevents reuse

Thanks. I'm still not following 100%, though. Is the problem that some providers foolishly store users' passwords in clear text, or that some providers allow passwords whose hashes are easy to reverse?

Both, plus people reuse passwords for random websites that might be malignant, plus they share them through social attacks, plus they put them in Post-its, plus they use easily guessable or brute-forceable passwords…

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#64
post #58

Honest question since I'm not in the loop: what is the problem with passwords that passkeys are trying to solve?

The idea of authenticating is the presentation of your id, something only you know (a password), and potentially something only you have (2fac).

Passwords have a significant number of problems, the largest one is password re-use, so if your LinkedIn password gets stolen, it might be tried on your e-mail or bank account. The second is that they are hard to generate and then remember or store. This results in short passwords, easy to remember and therefore non random passwords, or written down passwords. Passwords can often be guessed. Passwords are easily forgotten, requiring complex, vulnerable password reset flows or interactions with fallible customer service reps. There are often policies that require inconvenient password resets where the old one is no longer valid. Passwords do not have attached metadata, so you might enter in a password on a website that looks like paypal, but isn't paypal. It's much easier to phish a password. Passwords can also sit on your clipboard after ctrl+c, which might be vulnerable. Passwords less than 9 characters can be brute forced and even passwords less than 12 characters might be vulnerable to state actors, especially if they aren't completely random.

There is an additional nuance between signing something compared to copying something that results in where data that can compromise you exists in memory. Sending a string to a root owned process and getting a signed string back is a bit different than asking a root owned process for a privileged piece of information (a password) and having that copied into your processes memory.

Pass keys mainly attempt to remove a significant amount of the human factor above (remembering, re-use, reset flows, etc.) while increasing overall convenience without sacrificing security.

Rather than providing the current tuple(id, something only you know, something only you have), the idea is you provide (id, something only you are or something only you know, something only you have). Something you are is face or finger id, and the fallback is something you know, which is your pin. Because keys are more or less universally unique and they can be stored in apples secure enclave or in privileged memory they can also work as something you have. If you run something that turns a QR code into raw text, you will find that 2 factor codes are more or less a private key that is saved into an authentication app on a particular device (iirc).

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#65
We went from having one password used on most all sites to having unique random passwords for each site saved in a password manager. But of course those are all accessible then via a single , traditional memorable easy to type ‘single’ password. Yes requires access to one’s devices and helps avoid phishing and all other benefits but just interesting. With passkeys assuming one still uses a password manager to manage the keys (since otherwise if your devices were lost or stolen you’d be screwed) then all your passkeys are stil behind a regular memorable easy to type password and a computer password that is also by nature a memorable password, etc. There are again still lots of benefits for the new method and help avoid the most common issues for people currently so none of this is bad but more good to realize you still have a password in general just one to manage them all.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#66
post #54
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presenting this as a choice between using Apple's closed solution or using easy-to-remember passwords is disingenuous. Please don't participate in the discussion if you're going to be this bad faith.

> Please don't participate in the discussion if you're going to be this bad faith. That works both ways. You've asked a question, to which the information is easily accessible online[ https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT213305 ]. It very clear from both the article and other online sources that this is based on WebAuthN[ https://webauthn.guide ]. You have been equally as disingenuous and based on your responses, acted…

Wow, why so angry?

My question was genuine. I have been trying to look into this before and not found anything on how keys are supposed to be synced across ecosystems. And your links don't explain that either; the Apple link explains how it syncs _within_ the iCloud ecosystem, not how it syncs between the different ecosystems. I didn't find your WebAuthN link before, but quickly skimming through it, I don't see anything about how keys are supposed to be synced between ecosystems. And when I have looked into this before, all I've been able to find is solutions to migrate between ecosystems, not syncing between them, which are wildly different use-cases.

If you have nothing productive to contribute, please don't.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read the Mythical Man-Month. You can't just add unlimited developers to a project and expect it to be productive or sustainable. No different at Meta, Spotify, Netflix etc.

I don’t see how an extra program built for windows or linux can in any way stall whatever project limits Apple faces for macos. They’re effectively independent projects.

There are only so many competent software developers and managers out there. Managers have limited bandwidth as well. For everything any organization says “yes” to, it’s saying “no” to something else. That’s true even if the organization has a huge cash pile.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#68
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at Apple and no one is deliberately making the experience bad on non-Apple devices. They just have a million things they want to do, limited resources and so they simply don't prioritise it.

Using "limited resources" while talking about Apple is surely a joke, right?

Apple historically runs skeleton teams for everything. The company is all about getting more from less.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#69
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In words of Tim Cook on the last event: "Just buy an iPhone (or a Mac and an iPad)". Making your experience bad on non-Apple devices is part of the design, not accident.

I worked at Apple and no one is deliberately making the experience bad on non-Apple devices. They just have a million things they want to do, limited resources and so they simply don't prioritise it.

Apple product direction is set by execs who buy their entire extended family iPhones and switch between their three HomeKit-enabled houses and driving to work in their CarPlay cars. This biases how they determine value in things, beyond the obvious reasons.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#70
I feel we're powerless to stop this, since it's an extremely easy sell to normal users. The average iPhone user wouldn't think once, let alone twice, about clicking OK on that shiny new doodad-app, and that's all the critical mass they need.

Even if they _were_ to think twice, what are the feasible alternatives? A password manager where you generate passwords for each account? Sure, I do that, you probably do that, but good luck getting your grandma to do that.

This is all super-bad because once it becomes unavoidable, Apple controls _your_ access to everything digital. Apple. Let that sink in. This is the company that backed down on encryption when the FBI asked them to. The company that has stronger device lock-in than any you could imagine.

Am I freaking out unnecessarily? Is my reasoning flawed? Genuine question!

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