Live data from Hacker News

EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

uncrunched.com

61–70 of 94 posts

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#61

Wow, this is like a knight in a white horse for Hunch.. I seriously doubt they were making any profit... This sounds like a talent acquisition. I mean this is ridiculous... but it goes to show you.. you gotta show up for the game (the startup game, I mean) to win it... $80 m for a site that doesn't even get 1 million uniques (per Compete) a month is a STEAL. I mean.. seriously, everyone who has a CS background should…

> everyone who has a CS background should just start something on the side if a deal like this is possible Chris Dixon is a veteran investor and entrepreneur, with enormous visibility in the tech world. Contacts with potential acquirers are a non-issue for him. A poor CS fellow could have created a version of Hunch that was 100x better and they still would have 1,000x less of an exit opportunity as compared to any st…

100x "better" in what sense? Traffic? If so, I suspect suitors would line up.

While Dixon's reputation is a great asset, I wouldn't say it's a multiple-orders-of-magnitude difference.

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, this is completely absurd. Say what you will about Chris Dixon (zomg he doesn't code, wtf!!!!!111), but the engineering team at Hunch is second-to-none. Grandparent makes it sound like Dixon pulled this off in his spare time. He assembled a team of A-level engineers, then secured millions in funding so they could develop an awesome recommendation engine with almost no clear revenue stream. I challenge anyone…

I think we need to move away from all the nonsense of "A-level engineers" or superstar developers and so and so and so. Carl Henderson of Flickr fame looked like an A-level engineer back then (especially with his O'reilly book) yet some of the Flickr engineers baffled when they saw the Flickr codebase. Sometime it's all smoke and marketing hype.

Flickr was a bonafide cultural phenomenon before Yahoo let it die on the vine. That doesn't happen with crappy engineering. Less-than-optimal engineering, yes. That's the tradeoff between getting a product out the door and never delivering.

Netscape's code was pretty crappy too.

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#63
Could someone experienced breakdown what a transaction like this looks like for everyone involved? I'm super curious. I've never been acquired, so I really have no insight into the process other than what I've read.

Here's the facts as I see them: Crunchbase says Hunch started in September of 2007 and had 23 employees on LinkedIn when they exited. (TechCrunch calls it a 20-person team, so I'm presuming that's all the employees.) They've gotten $19.2m in funding, let's just say $20m. TechCrunch claims the sale was "around" $80m.

So what does the breakdown look like? Who gets what? What are the likely investor terms?

My totally naive guess would be that the investors got at least a 1x liquidation preference, maybe more. I mean, did Hunch have any revenue? So there was at most $40m to go around to the people at the company. Of course, most of that probably went to the founders. Would maybe 20% of that have gone to the 20-ish employees? So naively pretending that each of the 20-ish employees got 1% for four years, did they each end up with an extra $100k/year? What's the likely distribution of shares among employees?

What are the transaction costs (lawyers, taxes, etc.) for this sort of acquisition? How long will the employees have to be at eBay to get their earn-out, and will that earn-out be in addition to their common stock in Hunch? Will they end up being paid less to work for eBay during their earn-out than if they were on the open market?

Of course, their are many other reasons to do a deal like this (passion for improving eBay's recommendations, for example), but let's ignore that for now.

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to move away from all the nonsense of "A-level engineers" or superstar developers and so and so and so. Carl Henderson of Flickr fame looked like an A-level engineer back then (especially with his O'reilly book) yet some of the Flickr engineers baffled when they saw the Flickr codebase. Sometime it's all smoke and marketing hype.

Flickr was a bonafide cultural phenomenon before Yahoo let it die on the vine. That doesn't happen with crappy engineering. Less-than-optimal engineering, yes. That's the tradeoff between getting a product out the door and never delivering. Netscape's code was pretty crappy too.

I never refer to a perfect utopia where the code is superbly indented, nicely commented, looks great, etc.

But hacks will always be hacks regardless the discussion of "getting product out of the door" vs "never delivering".

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#66
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this really is true then it's a sad indictment of the state of the startup scene. Perhaps your hypothetical fellow should focus on building a "lifestyle business" instead of trying to get big and then get acquired...

Technically he should be a software developer with a $120-200k salary working at Google, saving money with compound interest and getting company stock. Thats the easiest way as a CS grad to become wealthy - if thats your goal.

That's when you don't factor in 'skills'. If you're 'any' CS grad, you're right. Be if your skills are above average (CS and business sense), this skews the return of investment of the startup.

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#67
post #31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is ebay thinking? Impressive back-end tech (the recommendation engine) that can now process millions and millions of items on eBay to help increase sales (something like a quarter of Amazon's sales come from recommendations).

80 million dollars is a lot to pay for a recommendation engine. Netflix had their own and paid a million dollars as prize payout for an absolutely state of the art system. If it really was just a tech acquisition they massively overpaid.

As someone who builds recommender systems for a living, let me assure you that the output of the netflix prize was perhaps 10% of what you need to actually build a good recommendations product.

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#68

Whatever Hunch is really good at, we haven't seen it yet. I assume Ebay has, and that it has everything to do with crunching customer browsing & purchase behavior to offer them products they're most likely to purchase.

I think their predictions were actually really good. A while ago I tested several movie recommendation engines and hunch was the only one that delivered.

On the downside, they really asked a lot of questions, which made me uncomfortable with using it.

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#69

Could someone experienced breakdown what a transaction like this looks like for everyone involved? I'm super curious. I've never been acquired, so I really have no insight into the process other than what I've read. Here's the facts as I see them: Crunchbase says Hunch started in September of 2007 and had 23 employees on LinkedIn when they exited. (TechCrunch calls it a 20-person team, so I'm presuming that's all the…

Here's a wild, random-ass guess:

- Let's keep it simple and say that since this is an experienced team, the investors invested $20m at a $60m post, so they have 1/3 of the company. Since it is an experienced team, I'm going to guess no participation or anything else hokey. 1x liquidation preference is likely but won't matter in this scenario b/c preferred will convert to common.

- With a 20 person team, you've probably given away 5-10% of the company to employees. The later employees probably did not get much, but then again, they weren't around for that long. Let's be very generous and call it 10%.

- That leaves the founders with 57% of the company.

- Let's just not count transaction costs, they're probably in the $75-$200k range, and it's not super material to this discussion.

In that scenario, the founders make $11.4 million each pre-tax, or about $8.55m post-tax (assuming all founders are equal, which is probably also unlikely here). The employees make $8m pre-tax total, or ~$350k each pretax, or ~$190k each post-tax, but the distribution is going to be skewed towards earlier employees. Investors make $26.4m, which is a pretty poor return for a 3-year investment -- investors are mostly looking at IRR, which means the longer an exit takes, the higher the outcome needs to be to make it worth it.

This is just a wild ass guess on what a transaction like this might look like, but lots and lots of things are likely way different than I guessed here, and I can guarantee that I've over-estimated the amount of money everybody made, because as a general rule of thumb that always happens.

EDIT: > How long will the employees have to be at eBay to get their earn-out, and will that earn-out be in addition to their common stock in Hunch? Will they end up being paid less to work for eBay during their earn-out than if they were on the open market?

Probably 2-4 years for the earn-out. The employees might get more retention bonuses to stick around, above what they would normally get from the transaction. They will not earn below-market due to the retention package.

Re: EBay acquires Hunch for $80m

#70

"It’s been a long journey for Hunch." They were founded in 2008 and sold for $80m 3 years later. That is considered a "long journey" these days? Statements like this give me that "we're in a bubble" feeling.

Agreed. The "standard journey" for a big, meaningful startup is more like 7 years. A "long journey" in my book would be 10-15 years.

With some very notable exceptions (YouTube, Zynga, Groupon), built-to-flip and talent acquisitions dominate the 1-2 year exit companies.

Post reply on HN