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“We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

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Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#61

Post by throwaway0asd »

barrysteve wrote: post #50
throwaway0asd wrote: post #20

To me discussions about privacy often seem like bullshit. Here is a comment I wrote yesterday about a former AdWords employee as privacy violation apologist: Hypocritically people bitch about intrusive data collection from governments and yet simultaneously give away the same data, and encourage others to do the same, and more to private companies knowing that data will be weaponized against them. As such it’s almost…

This is only viable when viewed as an economic game. As soon as a real war breaks out or national security is threatened, privacy invasions from foreign powers and literally anyone not whitelisted, will be ended quickly and be treated as acts of war. Assuming all private companies are bent is pointless. People should be allowed the choice to keep their data private and give it whomever they please. This is a 'free ma…

That’s an empty argument. People don’t have a choice on what third parties share and disclose. People don’t have a choice on things like HIPAA and banking regulations and they shouldn’t because those regulations protect people but don’t regulate people.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#62

Post by bluecalm »

ImHereToVote wrote: post #38
lupire wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Signatures" aren't necessarily better or worse than other sources. Other sources can be mistakes or intentional lies. What matters is the quality of the totality of the evidence, and how well convinced we are of what the accuracy based on past experience; and how much the deciders knew about last inaccuracies, when deciding to continue a practice. Statistical decision making is very slippery stuff.

I would prefer to be tried in a court of law, you?

It's not the choice you have though in areas where those killings take place. It's either drone strikes or nothing. Boots on the ground to catch bad guys and bring then to court isn't possible.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#63

Post by lotharcable »

Governments killing people without due process in this manner is criminal homicide.

Each person needs to held individually accountable for their crimes. State secrets should be declassified and released. Each person's individual actions should be documented. And they should be tried in court and serve sentences commensurate with their level of participation.

This does not secure the country. This creates enemies and makes the situation worse.

If we lived in a just world ever single one of these people would be serving a lifetime in jail. This includes the politicians that approved funding for it as well as any lawyers and judges that rubber stamped it.

There is war and then there is what the Federal government is doing. They are not the same thing.

It is unacceptable. It is global tyranny.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#64

Post by arminiusreturns »

Please, with the anniversary coming up shortly, remember the event that they used as an excuse to start "programs" like these: 9/11.

I was too young and dumb and propagandized to know what I was getting myself into, signing up to go fight "those evil terrorists", but it didnt take long for me to realize something wasnt right. I spent the vast majority of my life since I got out of the Corps trying to understand the why of it all, starting with the small picture view from an infantrymans perspective, working my way up piece by piece until I was at the 30k ft view at the global scale.

You can't solve the war on terror or the turning on of the totalitarian surveillance state without solving 9/11, the justification that enabled those things. The story as told by government and their operation mockingbird 2.0 lackeys in media just isn't true.

What I realized, that still terrifies me, is that all these tools and techniques we used "over there", are going to end up being used against us (and other countries) domestically.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#65

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kshacker wrote: post #48
mikece wrote: post #8

"Signature strikes" -- the target has a signature (movement, data, use of a satellite phone or specific cellular number, entourage, etc) that matches that of an HVT (high value taget) that is authorized for termination by drone strike. The CIA has killed lots of the wrong people because "signature strikes" don't require second source intelligence to verify who the target is (eg: is the person using the satellite phon…

I am reading "a peoples history of United States" by Howard zinn. It highlights US in a very negative light so with that caveat out of the way, it appears we are continuously ashamed of things we did just a century back. Always. Maybe in a hundred years we will also talk about the current era as dark times (as long as we are the top dog or maybe number 2). But at that point we will have something else to be ashamed o…

> when you look at any country

This is true of any group of people, particularly a tolerant one, because actions deemed necessary by some will always be abhorrent to others.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#66

Post by the_optimist »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #40

"sussy General Michael Hayden" The author shows their bias. I think it's good that US intelligence uses every tool at their disposal against foreign threats. Tell me why they shouldn't? What is the alternative?

The very obvious 'alternative' is to restrict tools at their disposal. For example, genocide. Or nuclear weapons, poison gas, citizen hostages, mass casualty events, or tools with a high probability of killing innocent people. We are not and should not be a lawless people.

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#67

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

ImHereToVote wrote: post #38
lupire wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Signatures" aren't necessarily better or worse than other sources. Other sources can be mistakes or intentional lies. What matters is the quality of the totality of the evidence, and how well convinced we are of what the accuracy based on past experience; and how much the deciders knew about last inaccuracies, when deciding to continue a practice. Statistical decision making is very slippery stuff.

I would prefer to be tried in a court of law, you?

This is likely the most upsetting part. As flawed as US judicial system is, it is a system that still has to move within certain known parameters. The fact that judicial system stops applying the moment 'the government' decides it doesn't apply is in itself a big problem that effectively undermines basic trust in the system. I don't want to say that it started with Bush, because each president had their sins, but war on terror put a lot of clandestine stuff right in the open. Obama only made it worse ( since he actually killed a US citizen ). Biden was not better..

I am not some sort of naive activist. I accept there is a price to be paid for the relative comfort I live in. That said, some basic rules have to be followed if only to ensure citizenry that they are followed.

For better or worse, most citizens seem to be getting regular reminders[1] that the rules, at best, are not applied evenly. The trust in institutions is already low. Some basic accountability has to apply even to the highest echelon. Scratch that, it especially needs to apply to it.

[1]https://www.npr.org/2022/08/24/1119185396/paul-pelosi-nancy-...

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#68

Post by [deleted] »

the_lonely_road wrote: post #49
ImHereToVote wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer to be tried in a court of law, you?

That's a false equivalence though and not what the alternative option is here. The government was killing its enemies 100 years before the word digital was invented and will continue to do so as long as government exist. They will use every technology invented in the pursuit of doing so. Blaming metadata signature based approaches is no different than blaming their use of satellites, metallurgy, hell the wheel is a b…

[deleted]

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#69

Post by gffrd »

lupire wrote: post #33
mikece wrote: post #8

"Signature strikes" -- the target has a signature (movement, data, use of a satellite phone or specific cellular number, entourage, etc) that matches that of an HVT (high value taget) that is authorized for termination by drone strike. The CIA has killed lots of the wrong people because "signature strikes" don't require second source intelligence to verify who the target is (eg: is the person using the satellite phon…

"Signatures" aren't necessarily better or worse than other sources. Other sources can be mistakes or intentional lies. What matters is the quality of the totality of the evidence, and how well convinced we are of what the accuracy based on past experience; and how much the deciders knew about last inaccuracies, when deciding to continue a practice. Statistical decision making is very slippery stuff.

This is an excellent summary of how to make decisions, and to continually get better at making them.

> and how well convinced we are of what the accuracy based on past experience; and how much the deciders knew about last inaccuracies, when deciding to continue a practice.

This in particular. How did proceeding this way do in the past? What did we get when we decided to continue with a discrepancy? If the discrepancy did not result in an issue, why? was the information bad, our handling of it, or just chance? If it was an issue, can we avoid overriding it again, can we get better info, can we discard it altogether from consideration?

(note: this comment doesn't relate to the content of the article at all, but about the decision-making process outlined above)

Re: “We kill people based on metadata” and other metadata things

#70

Post by decebalus1 »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #42
CamperBob2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, yes, poorly phrased. We don't know if he's guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and probably won't, because presidents and former presidents are immune to prosecution in this country. It's always possible the he had legitimate reasons for storing SC information outside a SCIF. No one can think of any, including his own legal team, but hey, ex-President, right?

Are you aware that Trump could have tweeted a copy of every top secret document the government has and it would have been perfectly legal?

Unfortunately that's not what he did. I also can't FOIA the documents he took, can I?
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