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Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

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Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#61

Post by prh8 »

switch007 wrote: post #15
josephcsible wrote: post #2

> BMW currently requires car owners in some countries to pay roughly $12 per month to access a safety feature called “High Beam Assistant,” which automatically turns off a car’s high beam lights when it senses another car to avoid blinding other drivers at night. > “Safety should come standard,” Wallace said of adaptive headlights. “Some automakers might think that those are simply a convenience feature, but there’s…

High Beam Assist is a dangerous anti feature imo. Kind of glad for it to be gated behind a paid subscription, saves having to turn it off. I’ve driven various cars with this feature and they never turn it on and off when I would. I’ve nearly been crashed in to because a car at a junction thought I was flashing them to pull out, as I was doing 60 mph, and they did. (Also, I’m assuming the automatic turning on of the h…

Interesting, do you mind sharing what makes you've experienced it with? My new '22 Subaru is my first experience, and if anything, they are off way more than I would like.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#62

Post by chrisseaton »

neogodless wrote: post #56
chrisseaton wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's blackmail-powered greed. I really don't get people's revulsion to this model. As long as you know the deal up front, what is the ethical issue? How can it ever be 'greed' or 'blackmail' to offer a service or product (a luxury one at that)? Do your sums and then either the total cost is worth it to you or it isn't. Why does the payment model get people so riled up?

> As long as you know the deal up front I suspect this is... not always the case. > I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further There isn't much from stopping the manufacturers from changing the "up front" deal under this model. (Unless it becomes egregious enough to become illegal.) We'd like to get out in front of this and stop it from getting to that point.

So is all the anger in this thread based on a hypothetical that they might break their contract? If it's an ongoing payment they're actually incentivised to not do that!

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#63

Post by josephcsible »

chrisseaton wrote: post #51
charles_f wrote: post #32

I can somewhat understand the logic of charging me a recurring fee for a service that costs the provider a recurring cost, gets regular improvements, and where data is maintained. TV/sat radio? Ok (not that I would buy that). Remote tracking / start? Why not. Internet access in the car? Sure. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. I would hope that given how much you charge me for the product, these come included, but M…

> That's blackmail-powered greed. I really don't get people's revulsion to this model. As long as you know the deal up front, what is the ethical issue? How can it ever be 'greed' or 'blackmail' to offer a service or product (a luxury one at that)? Do your sums and then either the total cost is worth it to you or it isn't. Why does the payment model get people so riled up?

Because it relies on me not having full control over something I'm the owner of, and because the markup is infinity percent.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#64

Post by kkfx »

chrisseaton wrote: post #51
charles_f wrote: post #32

I can somewhat understand the logic of charging me a recurring fee for a service that costs the provider a recurring cost, gets regular improvements, and where data is maintained. TV/sat radio? Ok (not that I would buy that). Remote tracking / start? Why not. Internet access in the car? Sure. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. I would hope that given how much you charge me for the product, these come included, but M…

> That's blackmail-powered greed. I really don't get people's revulsion to this model. As long as you know the deal up front, what is the ethical issue? How can it ever be 'greed' or 'blackmail' to offer a service or product (a luxury one at that)? Do your sums and then either the total cost is worth it to you or it isn't. Why does the payment model get people so riled up?

The previsible absence of alternatives it's the main blackmail issue. The second is the fact that you can sell something packed with services and full of proprietary crap.

That last is not blackmail but a crime against humanity committed by politicians and citizens who allow that.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#65

Post by vasco »

charles_f wrote: post #32

I can somewhat understand the logic of charging me a recurring fee for a service that costs the provider a recurring cost, gets regular improvements, and where data is maintained. TV/sat radio? Ok (not that I would buy that). Remote tracking / start? Why not. Internet access in the car? Sure. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. I would hope that given how much you charge me for the product, these come included, but M…

This is less to do with blackmail than to do with optimising manufacturing. It is cheaper for manufacurers to produce all the cars with the same heated seats, but not allow you to use them if you don't pay the recurring charge (as long as enough % of customers opt-in), than to manufacture two versions of the car, one with the seats and one without, just so that you can feel like you aren't being blackmailed.

You should forget about what the car "has" and consider if the price makes sense for the features you get access to. This is for example how CPUs and GPUs are sold, and many other products. Consumers usually find it odd that they have the exact same specs (and smart consumers can enable those features for free), but it does provide for lower costs for manufacturing, which dictate how everything else works.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#66

Post by sonthonax »

ok123456 wrote: post #55

This just means that circumvention will be an lucrative industry. For heated seats, someone will add a bypass that just adds a physical switch that is spliced directly somewhere between a power source and the actual heating element. Just have to figure out an aesthetic place to mount it. The only downside being, in this case you can't control it via an aPp or through the tablet that replaced the actual console contro…

Yeah, heated seats are just wire filaments connected to the car’s power supply.

That has to be trivial to bypass. Maybe as an added bonus you can turn it on with a button.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#67

Post by chrisseaton »

kkfx wrote: post #64
chrisseaton wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's blackmail-powered greed. I really don't get people's revulsion to this model. As long as you know the deal up front, what is the ethical issue? How can it ever be 'greed' or 'blackmail' to offer a service or product (a luxury one at that)? Do your sums and then either the total cost is worth it to you or it isn't. Why does the payment model get people so riled up?

The previsible absence of alternatives it's the main blackmail issue. The second is the fact that you can sell something packed with services and full of proprietary crap. That last is not blackmail but a crime against humanity committed by politicians and citizens who allow that.

> a crime against humanity

I feel like I can't take these reactions to an alternative payment plan for the heated seats in your luxury BMW seriously.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#68

Post by phren0logy »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #45

One of the features mentioned is a "remote starter" that lets you start the engine from outside the vehicle by pressing a button on the key. I'm not sure why anyone would call this a "basic feature", or indeed why anyone would want it.

It's useful if you live somewhere very cold

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#69

Post by prh8 »

dlmiller wrote: post #13

I have a 2021 Subaru that can only remote start via the App that requires a subscription to their "STARLINK Safety and Security" service. It comes with 3 free years, however its $99 a year after that. Not as egregious as other companies as I can get a factory remote starter installed. It appears that dealers deliberately order vehicles without the remote starter in order to push subscriptions.

With Subaru, you can also buy additional years for cheaper when purchasing the vehicle. I think I could do 10 years (7 additional) for 375. Personal preference now/later but that 375 goes on the loan anyways.

Re: Auto giants like BMW, GM and Toyota make drivers ‘subscribe’ for basic features

#70

Post by jen20 »

vasco wrote: post #65
charles_f wrote: post #32

I can somewhat understand the logic of charging me a recurring fee for a service that costs the provider a recurring cost, gets regular improvements, and where data is maintained. TV/sat radio? Ok (not that I would buy that). Remote tracking / start? Why not. Internet access in the car? Sure. Satellite maps with updates? Maybe. I would hope that given how much you charge me for the product, these come included, but M…

This is less to do with blackmail than to do with optimising manufacturing. It is cheaper for manufacurers to produce all the cars with the same heated seats, but not allow you to use them if you don't pay the recurring charge (as long as enough % of customers opt-in), than to manufacture two versions of the car, one with the seats and one without, just so that you can feel like you aren't being blackmailed. You shou…

> You should forget about what the car "has" and consider if the price makes sense for the features you get access to.

Absolutely not: manufacturers should forget about having their cake and eating it too.

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