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Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

bloomberg.com

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Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#61

Post by neither_color »

clouddrover wrote: post #12
devnulll wrote: post #4

> Putting a motor on each wheel — or at least one on each axle — could translate into hair-raising EV driving performance. I don't understand this. My Plaid Tesla has a motor on each of the rear axles, and it's direct coupled to the wheel. The already are doing torque vectoring. Like all things in engineering, the trade-off's are critical. This article doesn't go at all into the pros/cons of the approach Tesla (and o…

> As a general rule, if Tesla isn't doing it already I suspect it's either not economically feasible, difficult to manufacture, or otherwise has drawbacks they've judged signifigant. That's not a very good rule. There a lots of things Tesla doesn't do. - Tesla doesn't do battery swaps, but NIO does. NIO's done it 10 million times: https://www.nio.com/blog/nio-users-china-have-completed-10-m... - Tesla doesn't do 350…

On July 4, 2022, at the NIO power exchange station at Shanghai Hongqiao VEG Micro Creative Park, an ES8 marked the 10,000,000th power swap in NIO’s history.

Impressive that they were able to do this in July of '22 after just being in one of the world's most severe lockdown for months in a row. There were almost no non-essential vehicles on the road in Shanghai for at least 60 days

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/13/china/china-covid-shangha...

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#62

Post by rektide »

bombcar wrote: post #7
devnulll wrote: post #4

> Putting a motor on each wheel — or at least one on each axle — could translate into hair-raising EV driving performance. I don't understand this. My Plaid Tesla has a motor on each of the rear axles, and it's direct coupled to the wheel. The already are doing torque vectoring. Like all things in engineering, the trade-off's are critical. This article doesn't go at all into the pros/cons of the approach Tesla (and o…

The idea of a motor on each wheel independent has obviously been considered, but what is often ignored is the sprung vs unsprung weight. You could develop a pretty amazing off-road vehicle with independent electric motors in each wheel, but it would be a relatively bumpy ride.

The unspring weight is the main reason I havent placed an Aptera (also in-wheel axial motor) pre-order. I have a hard time imagining this fundamental of vehicle dynamics can be adequately worked around, but oh how I want to believe. Also keeping me from placing a pre-order; their pre-order site wouldnt let me check out in Firefox.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#63

Post by threeseed »

googlryas wrote: post #54
clouddrover wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? How many people do you think buy high performance cars? The answer is: not many.

Someone said > the Plaid is still the fastest car you can buy without dropping a half million And you said: > Nope: https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/19/23312956/lucid-air-sapphi ... Except you can't actually buy the car you linked to. That's a pretty big miss in a conversation about cars you can buy. In fact, I would say one of the two defining features of "cars you can buy" is the fact that you can buy them.

You can reserve the Lucid now and have it available in early 2023.

I would suspect that it isn't too different from the Plaid.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#64

Post by threeseed »

it_citizen wrote: post #34
mechanical_bear wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Climate change reports are all pretty clear we need to move to smaller, less powerful cars to meet our climate pledges. And produce less of them. I think starting to see cars as a simple mean to go from A to B instead of a symbol of freedom, status or virility would really be a huge win. I also hope that on the long run it would help more city dwellers accept the idea of sharing cars instead of owning one. Collective…

> Climate change reports are all pretty clear we need to move to smaller, less powerful cars to meet our climate pledges. And produce less of them.

Might want to start then with Americans and their SUVs.

Few orders of magnitude bigger issue than a few rich people and their supercars.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#65

Post by AtlasBarfed »

hooloovoo_zoo wrote: post #42
elif wrote: post #36

The perspective of this piece is a little suspicious: -ferrari still maintain that they will never produce electric cars -the concept of hub motors is a fad that has come and largely gone. Putting the motors inside the wheels leads to reliability concerns -motors with smaller diameter will need more power for the same performance of a larger diameter motor, and the battery is the heavy part Normally each of these i'd…

Ferrari has no choice. They’ll eventually be banned on noise pollution grounds/ be too low performance to be considered super cars if they stick with internal combustion.

Plaid's times around the Nurb show that when weight gets solved with solid state batteries, which is what all the high end cars will use, ICE won't be competitive.

And while it's been a bit like fusion power, always a couple years away, enough is happening in solid state that it's probably happening in a couple years.

Now, it might now be competitive in the mass market, where I believe sodium ion and LFP/LMFP/etc chemistries will dominate for probably a decade, but it will own the 100k+ car segment.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#66

Post by Kon-Peki »

zeusk wrote: post #37
nimbius wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

call me a skeptic, I've worked in the auto industry as a heavy engine master tech for over 20 years, but the same luxury manufacturers who can't make a v8 that lasts longer than 60k miles without a recall or major defect are not qualified to skip class and start making Ev's. Mercedes rolled out the 250 largely because biturbo has been a loss leading qc dumpster fire for the last decade. Audi can barely handle infotai…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19800220 is it a 7 series or some Japanese SUV? Also, if you're as experienced as you claim; You'd probably BMW does not make any transmissions. They've forever outsourced that to ZF or Getrag.

…and General Motors. Up until the ZF 8-speed, pretty much all the good automatic transmissions in BMWs were built by GM.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#67

Post by rnk »

elif wrote: post #36

The perspective of this piece is a little suspicious: -ferrari still maintain that they will never produce electric cars -the concept of hub motors is a fad that has come and largely gone. Putting the motors inside the wheels leads to reliability concerns -motors with smaller diameter will need more power for the same performance of a larger diameter motor, and the battery is the heavy part Normally each of these i'd…

It certainly feels like ice propaganda, a great way to summarize. These companies say they will have an edge but today they are at 0 in AMG and Ferrari. They are in danger of being superseded by entirely new companies building EVs, and not just Tesla. Chinese companies will crush them too, because the Chinese companies have the battery supplies. Most legacy makers like Toyota look to be in terrible shape, VW is the best placed legacy company.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#68

Post by wumpus »

threeseed wrote: post #63
googlryas wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone said > the Plaid is still the fastest car you can buy without dropping a half million And you said: > Nope: https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/19/23312956/lucid-air-sapphi ... Except you can't actually buy the car you linked to. That's a pretty big miss in a conversation about cars you can buy. In fact, I would say one of the two defining features of "cars you can buy" is the fact that you can buy them.

You can reserve the Lucid now and have it available in early 2023. I would suspect that it isn't too different from the Plaid.

There are 9 new Plaids in "inventory" in Palo Alto, plus 1 used.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#69

Post by syzar »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #59
syzar wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think among the ultra rich are very, very few climate experts and someone can be a hypocrite regarding their lifestyle while being correct about the need for change. People are local optimization machines and one can know that there is a great danger lurking in the future whilst over dosing on consumption.

> I think among the ultra rich are very, very few climate experts They are far better informed and advised by experts in climate than you or I though. Also one can not just be an expert in climate science. A climate scientist could tell you the effect of increasing CO2 concentration in the atmosphere on the climate. They can not tell you the social and economic cost of that, or the best and most efficient technologie…

I don’t care whether or not you are doing your part for the environment or any other cause. My response above was not intended to try to convince you to take some action. My purpose was to point out flawed reasoning.

Your second to last sentence is flawed. You can’t logically assume it’s all selfish lies. A hypocrite can be correct in what they saw but wrong in what they do. The correctness of a belief has nothing to do with whether or not the purveyors of that belief are hypocrites.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#70

Post by googlryas »

threeseed wrote: post #63
googlryas wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone said > the Plaid is still the fastest car you can buy without dropping a half million And you said: > Nope: https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/19/23312956/lucid-air-sapphi ... Except you can't actually buy the car you linked to. That's a pretty big miss in a conversation about cars you can buy. In fact, I would say one of the two defining features of "cars you can buy" is the fact that you can buy them.

You can reserve the Lucid now and have it available in early 2023. I would suspect that it isn't too different from the Plaid.

Pre-release is completely different from released-but-with-a-waiting-list. Maybe they'll hit early 2023. Maybe it will be late 2023. Maybe the whole thing will be scrapped.
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