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School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

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Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#61

Post by mlyle »

tailrecursion wrote: post #58
josephcsible wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a child complaining about anonymous abusive messages is ignored by the school. School's not responsible, because the child's phone is set up improperly. Imagine if the police requested, but technically didn't mandate, that parents install location tracking apps on their children's phones, and that they then ignored missing persons reports for anyone who didn't do so.

Quoted post unavailable.

Please think about the site guidelines.

In any case, I don't think a technical countermeasure that addresses a subset of cases erases the concern. You're presupposing harassment happens by SMS, which maybe was true 10 years ago.

How would your solution work with students' frequent use of Discord?

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#62

Post by lightedman »

mlyle wrote: post #42
vorpalhex wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they search my mobile device, they will deal with police and the court system. Whether the phone is in my posession or my kids is irrelevant.

As the document shows, many instances of schools searching students' mobile devices without a warrant have been shown to be constitutional in appellate courts.

There's a key word.

"My"

As in not the student.

MY phone.

Whether or not they have it is no excuse. It is MY device. MY rights have been firmly established.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#63

Post by tailrecursion »

mlyle wrote: post #61
tailrecursion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Please think about the site guidelines. In any case, I don't think a technical countermeasure that addresses a subset of cases erases the concern. You're presupposing harassment happens by SMS, which maybe was true 10 years ago. How would your solution work with students' frequent use of Discord?

I'm not a Discord user but if it's not possible for a user to block all incoming anonymous messages, Discord use would be disallowed by the school. The simple idea I've given doesn't work if kids can receive messages that aren't immediately traceable.

Schoolchildren would have to stop using any service that doesn't have a block-anonymous setting, or, accept that the school will ignore any complaints about anonymous messages. I think the biggest problem with the whole thing is that the kids won't stop using the services they want to use.

Apple could theoretically make a system setting to block unidentifiable messages (not phone calls) specifically to protect kids, in all apps on that phone.

When you speak of erasing the concern, do you mean the concern about bullying or the concern about going into children's phones and looking at text messages?

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#64

Post by mlyle »

Waterluvian wrote: post #55
naet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a court case that a family member of mine was involved in as a legal assistant, where a local high school found out a group of three kids had been operating an inappropriate instagram account targeting other students (all black) with things like photoshopped nooses around their necks, photoshopping pictures of the students into monkeys, and lots of horrible comments etc. Obviously this made the targeted stu…

Good point. It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record.

> It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record.

It's a good thing.

Student mental health is pretty bad these days. Part of it is that everything is so high stakes: society tells kids any little slip up-- academic or behavioral-- will affect them forever.

It's good that ordinary missteps can go away.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#65

Post by mlyle »

tailrecursion wrote: post #63
mlyle wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please think about the site guidelines. In any case, I don't think a technical countermeasure that addresses a subset of cases erases the concern. You're presupposing harassment happens by SMS, which maybe was true 10 years ago. How would your solution work with students' frequent use of Discord?

I'm not a Discord user but if it's not possible for a user to block all incoming anonymous messages, Discord use would be disallowed by the school. The simple idea I've given doesn't work if kids can receive messages that aren't immediately traceable. Schoolchildren would have to stop using any service that doesn't have a block-anonymous setting, or, accept that the school will ignore any complaints about anonymous m…

> Schoolchildren would have to stop using any service that doesn't have a block-anonymous setting, or, accept that the school will ignore any complaints about anonymous messages.

Schools already heavily discourage Discord use, but most students use it. Most students aren't bullied, either, so the bullied students complying only further isolates them. It's pretty intrinsically anonymous, too. Accounts need to have a phone number on record, so in theory one could subpoena it... but it's not like a correct phone number is needed for everyday interaction.

Also, sometimes the bullied student isn't even in the message chain. Taking pictures of students at school, then manipulating them and circulating them online and getting everyone else at school to laugh at the victim student when they return is a common tactic.

Then you have Student ABC complaining. Students have been counseled to stop but it keeps happening. ABC believes student DEF did it, and some corroboration that it is student DEF such that the school is now 90% sure that student DEF is behind this. Student ABC is the subject of increasing ridicule and is now doing poorly at school. What's the next step?

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#66

Post by mlyle »

lightedman wrote: post #62
mlyle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the document shows, many instances of schools searching students' mobile devices without a warrant have been shown to be constitutional in appellate courts.

There's a key word. "My" As in not the student. MY phone. Whether or not they have it is no excuse. It is MY device. MY rights have been firmly established.

I believe the comment has been edited since I replied, but... in any case.

> Whether or not they have it is no excuse. It is MY device. MY rights have been firmly established.

If your student takes "your" backpack to school, and there's a reason to search it, the fact that it is "your" property will not affect things much.

This is a highly dubious legal theory. Fourth amendment decisions about search of property on one's person basically never have to do with actual ownership.

(There are some exceptions, but generally to the detriment of the rights of the person/property being searched).

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#67

Post by philipwhiuk »

Someone1234 wrote: post #16

Let me provide a common hypothetical: - A student is being bullied. This bullying is happening using social media and or text messages. These messages are being sent at various times pseudo-anonymously but there's strong reason to know who it is. Who, exactly, is the authority who we expect to look into this? Is it the police? Using what law/powers? Are social workers empowered? We're clearly not ok with the school d…

You make the parents legally responsible for the actions of the child and then you send the police after the parents.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#68

Post by panda88888 »

naet wrote: post #30
Someone1234 wrote: post #16

Let me provide a common hypothetical: - A student is being bullied. This bullying is happening using social media and or text messages. These messages are being sent at various times pseudo-anonymously but there's strong reason to know who it is. Who, exactly, is the authority who we expect to look into this? Is it the police? Using what law/powers? Are social workers empowered? We're clearly not ok with the school d…

There was a court case that a family member of mine was involved in as a legal assistant, where a local high school found out a group of three kids had been operating an inappropriate instagram account targeting other students (all black) with things like photoshopped nooses around their necks, photoshopping pictures of the students into monkeys, and lots of horrible comments etc. Obviously this made the targeted stu…

> their family lawyer arguing that they shouldn't have this incident on their student record because it occurred outside of school

I think the alternatives should be criminal record or student record.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#69

Post by politician »

mlyle wrote: post #33
politician wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the things that happen between children outside their homes, like at a neighborhood park? Would that not meet the vague “standard” of affecting the learning environment at the school? What about what happens in the home? Do they have jurisdiction there too? Maybe schools should mind their own business instead of becoming totalitarian states that use permissive precedents to dig into everyone’s business.

> What about the things that happen between children outside their homes, like at a neighborhood park? I absolutely think it's relevant whether student A punched student B in the face at the park yesterday, when they're dealing with a dispute where student A seems to have done something that's in a grey area to student B. "Playful" jostling that student B doesn't appreciate is very different with the context of the p…

> Of course, the problem schools face is that objective facts about what's happened between students-- in or out of school-- are frequently not known.

That's right, but the solution is not to empower schools to operate their own investigation departments so that they can enforce their own laws on our children through a governance system best described as a Medieval lordship. There must be limits on their authority.

For children in abusive home environments, schools ought to refer these cases to the State. For children involved in bullying relationships, schools ought to refer these cases to the State. There are more adequate checks and balances on the actions of State than within the unelected fiat systems of governance in public schools. State and local governments can direct the appropriate responses of social workers and law enforcement. There is no rationale for protecting violent bullies from the law by adjudicating their behavior within the nonstandard and arbitrary discipline systems of schools.

Schools are not law enforcement and have powerful incentives to act capriciously to keep production moving: as you shared - they didn't look out for you and they didn't stop your bully.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#70

Post by tailrecursion »

mlyle wrote: post #65
tailrecursion wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a Discord user but if it's not possible for a user to block all incoming anonymous messages, Discord use would be disallowed by the school. The simple idea I've given doesn't work if kids can receive messages that aren't immediately traceable. Schoolchildren would have to stop using any service that doesn't have a block-anonymous setting, or, accept that the school will ignore any complaints about anonymous m…

> Schoolchildren would have to stop using any service that doesn't have a block-anonymous setting, or, accept that the school will ignore any complaints about anonymous messages. Schools already heavily discourage Discord use, but most students use it. Most students aren't bullied, either, so the bullied students complying only further isolates them. It's pretty intrinsically anonymous, too. Accounts need to have a p…

I agree that accounts on Discord, Instagram, Whatsapp are effectively anonymous and students are not likely to stop using them. As you indicate, the police could follow the required phone number but not the school.

Yes, your scenario is one I hadn't considered. I don't know what a good resolution is there; I would suggest that DEF is not necessarily the bad guy. Maybe. But not necessarily. This one is also difficult to punt to the police since there's no clear harassment, yet ABC's torment is increasing. It's sad but I think it's often better for the child to solve the problem himself.

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