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Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

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Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#61

Post by hardolaf »

kube-system wrote: post #20
voidfunc wrote: post #9

Number one reason: You're not offering me enough good reasons to leave my current job. I don't think HR and software recruiting has really caught up to the reality that many developers by their mid-30's are sitting on a million+ in assets and good ones can rake in 200K+ easy. Further we usually find equilibrium with our roles wherever we are even if we have gripes with how things are because most devs are pragmatic p…

Don't write off a company just because they have an unlimited PTO policy. Check out the culture first, some actually respect it. Especially in smaller companies, it's sometimes just easier to judge people based on their output rather than the number of days their butt is behind a keyboard.

I worked for a defense contractor that had a truly unlimited vacation policy as long as you were getting your work done. We actually would get formally reprimanded and put on a PIP for not using enough vacation. All benefits started day 1 including 4 months new parental leave (fully paid; STD following birth did not count against the 4 months), unlimited vacation (no questions asked and auto-approved for the first 30 days per year), unlimited sick leave (up to 5-days per incident after which you'd transition to STD up through 12 weeks then LTD at 100%, then 70% of pay until better or moved onto SSDI exceeding the benefit respectively), unlimited jury duty leave at 100% pay (one guy that I knew there spent 4 months on a jury for a complex civil trial), dedicated paid time off to vote in every election (local, state, or federal), and a whole heck of a lot more. Had I not gotten a much better offer from a HFT firm that fully offset the decrease in benefits, I probably would never have left the company because of how amazing the benefits were. I had taken 4 weeks off for my wedding + honeymoon before I quit and my manager was talking to me about how I should still schedule another 3-4 weeks off that fiscal year for vacations at other times.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#62

Post by noirbot »

endtime wrote: post #39
intelVISA wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good approach but can't imagine doing a take home unless it was paid.

I've never been asked to do a take home interview assignment, but I actually have the opposite attitude. I would much rather spend a few hours putting together that I feel good about than spend 10x the time cramming interview prep.

Or, you know, you don't cram for the interview and just do as well as you can and let them evaluate on that. If you give me a meaningless take-home assignment, I have to actually write working code for it that looks good. If there's a trivial problem in an in-person interview, I can often "blah blah blah" through the more rote parts unless they really ask for details.

There's no wiggle room on a take-home. The code you write either does the thing or it doesn't. If you don't remember the exact way to do something in an in-person interview, you can express your general understanding to the interviewer and probably get some/all the credit of actually knowing it.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#63

Post by tqi »

Everyone in this thread who thinks there is an easy / obvious answer to this question should realize how silly that belief is just from reading the other comments here:

"I'd rather wait in line at the DMV all day than go through a typical 6hr tech interview. Hire me based on my resume and a phone call, give me a task, and if it's good enough keep me. Problem solved."[1]

"Take homes are one of the single biggest turnoffs for experienced talent in interview processes. People don't want to do them. Especially good devs who can land a job anywhere."[2]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32404256 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32403899

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#64

Post by Sodman »

karamanolev wrote: post #23
kube-system wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't write off a company just because they have an unlimited PTO policy. Check out the culture first, some actually respect it. Especially in smaller companies, it's sometimes just easier to judge people based on their output rather than the number of days their butt is behind a keyboard.

> some actually respect it I'm yet to see one or hear from a friend who works in one. I admit there might exist one somewhere, but by and large, they don't. Unlimited PTO = culture of overworking, at least for me. And small companies with unlimited PTO, 3-5 engineer teams (and some other staff, obviously) seem to be the worst offenders. The bigger the company, the higher the chance unlimited PTO might actually work.…

In the interview process, ask questions like "How many days off did you take last year?" or "How many days off in a year does an average team member take?". If the answer is As an anecdote, I've worked at a startup with unlimited PTO where the culture was that most folks were working 45-55 hour weeks regularly, but everyone took vacation whenever they felt they needed it. I averaged ~5 weeks of vacation per year taken during my tenure there. That was probably about par for the course with that team. As long as you're performing well while you are working, give enough advanced notice, and willing to be somewhat flexible (eg don't take 2 weeks vacation right before a big deadline with 2 days notice) - it can work out quite well for all parties.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#65

Post by silisili »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #13
silisili wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in principle, but not in experience. I've interviewed a few people lately, Senior Eng somehow, who have impressive resumes. I ask basic coding tasks just to make sure they actually know the language claimed - just something like converting numbers to strings, and you'd be amazed how many people had no idea where to start.

Doesnt sound like you disagree. That falls under the "give me a task" part.

Yeah not sure if it was edited or my brain completely skipped it, but I totally didn't see that when starting my reply - sorry.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#66

Post by intelVISA »

endtime wrote: post #39
intelVISA wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good approach but can't imagine doing a take home unless it was paid.

I've never been asked to do a take home interview assignment, but I actually have the opposite attitude. I would much rather spend a few hours putting together that I feel good about than spend 10x the time cramming interview prep.

I prefer a take home over some LC as you can learn a lot more by seeing somebody's repo, tests, code, etc. than their rote ver of reversing a linked list ...but LC is cheap, a take home that respects the developer's time isn't.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#68

Post by kube-system »

karamanolev wrote: post #23
kube-system wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't write off a company just because they have an unlimited PTO policy. Check out the culture first, some actually respect it. Especially in smaller companies, it's sometimes just easier to judge people based on their output rather than the number of days their butt is behind a keyboard.

> some actually respect it I'm yet to see one or hear from a friend who works in one. I admit there might exist one somewhere, but by and large, they don't. Unlimited PTO = culture of overworking, at least for me. And small companies with unlimited PTO, 3-5 engineer teams (and some other staff, obviously) seem to be the worst offenders. The bigger the company, the higher the chance unlimited PTO might actually work.…

It works as long as you have a culture where people don't abuse it. It's not workable if people think it's acceptable to disappear with some critical information only in their head and screw their coworkers. Document stuff. Set deadlines in advance, and expect people to meet them. Have a team that collaborates and is considerate to their peers. If people do this, nobody is counting how many days they're out.

I'd rather work at an unlimited PTO company with reasonable people than one with a generous allowance where people are always scheming to use it as a weapon.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#69

Post by analyst74 »

gsibble wrote: post #8

Personally, I've never found it difficult. Have 1-2 interviews with a take home or in person coding exercise or however they want to prove to me they can actually code. Pay high, have great benefits, high equity, treat your employees well, and fire those that don't perform up to expectations quickly. It's really not hard to spot talent. Don't make them jump through hoops. If they are talented and get along with your…

Great advice.

We can see the opposite in Amazon where they successfully built a reputation as a terrible place to work with low pay relative to its peers, and now struggle to attract talents.

Re: Why is recruiting developers so difficult?

#70

Post by Ensorceled »

yupper32 wrote: post #26
gsibble wrote: post #8

Personally, I've never found it difficult. Have 1-2 interviews with a take home or in person coding exercise or however they want to prove to me they can actually code. Pay high, have great benefits, high equity, treat your employees well, and fire those that don't perform up to expectations quickly. It's really not hard to spot talent. Don't make them jump through hoops. If they are talented and get along with your…

> Have 1-2 interviews with a take home. > fire those that don't perform up to expectations quickly. This attitude is why I haven't been recruited. I have 10 years at big tech and companies expect me to jump ship with the threat of getting fired if I don't immediately live up to expectations (even if I'm confident that I will, but I'll never know how high your expectations are until it's too late). Add on wild take ho…

> threat of getting fired if I don't immediately live up to expectations

I also try to fire fast and every single time the issue is that they do not actually have the skills they listed on their resume.

That's why the coding test and that's why you need to fire fast.

I have all kinds of patience for good people that need ramp up time.

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