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The 1857 Utah War

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Re: The 1857 Utah War

#61

Post by metadat »

InitialLastName wrote: post #60
metadat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I don't have the moral fortitude to defend Mormonism as a religion, but based on the model of organized religion as a theocratic social insurance program (which it has been since, at least, Leviticus), your complaints don't seem entirely unreasonable: > membership costs 10% of all you earn 10% is less than I currently pay into my state's social safety net programs. > If you are in dire straights as a member and requi…

The point is, they've amassed hundreds of billions or even trillions of dollars with this stingy pyramid scheme. The "social safety net" they offer is a joke. Enjoy your knitted blanket and can of baked beans.

The institution is only generous with their marketing budget (e.g. BYU, which is also run on a shoestring budget) or when they're on the receiving end of generosity.

The whole enterprise feeds on the exploitation of human souls for free labor.

It'd be nice if they looked outside themselves a little and invested their resources into efforts to help human-beings. Does "god" really only want them helping themselves?

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#62

Post by wang_li »

metadat wrote: post #27
ramesh31 wrote: post #14

Quoted post unavailable.

This hot take is a little extreme but not too far from the truth. You'll only understand the depths to which the LDS church controls the state and enforces it's social and moral code if you've lived in Utah for an extended period as an outsider. It's pretty fucking weird. - Hard liquor only sold by State Liquor stores, where they digitally record your ID. Only open a few hours a day, and on certain days. Additional s…

>Hard liquor only sold by State Liquor stores, where they digitally record your ID.

Similar to about 15 other states.

>Only open a few hours a day, and on certain days.

11 AM - 10 PM Monday thru Saturday. If you can't work with those hours you have a different problem than the lack of opportunity to buy alcohol.

>Additional state-mandated restrictions on what may be stocked (not too high of proof, etc). Fiendishly overpriced.

You can buy Everclear which is 190 proof. There is a limit but I think it has more to do with physics and chemistry than puritanism. If you want something they don't stock you can have them order it for you.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#63

Post by anonAndOn »

metadat wrote: post #44
R0b0t1 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

The persecution was also rooted in the cult's founder, Joseph Smith, having a thing for "seducing" young girls (14 year olds and even younger) and attempting to add them to his collection of 40 odd wives. His creepy heavenly-sanctioned pedophilic actions and vibe were not well-received by outsiders.

Somehow those blessed with being a "prophet" throughout the millennia are always instructed to have sex with young women/girls because the path to heaven is always in their pants. Funny how religion works across the ages.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#64

Post by throwawaylinux »

metadat wrote: post #46
rwcarlsen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm sure some of that does occur some places in the region, my experience in the Utah/Idaho region is very much the opposite. Friendly and very merit oriented work environments.

Quoted post unavailable.

Sounds like the federal government except you get a smile and a choice, it's cheaper, and it doesn't start so many wars. Probably less wasteful too.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#65

Post by fooey »

flanbiscuit wrote: post #42
rtkaratekid wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't hurt that the Salt Lake is sadly shrinking currently. So it's even worse than it probably was when they arrived.

The Great Salt Lake is not only shrinking/drying, but there's concern over the exposure of dangerous elements that was once underwater > Layers of earth that were formerly underwater have swirled into dust clouds laced with calcium, sulphur and arsenic, a naturally occurring element linked to cancer and birth defects. Exposed lakebed is also contaminated with residue from copper and silver mining. > "If you breathe t…

The GSL is also largely responsible for the famous Utah ski resorts

Without the lake effect producing all that snow, Utah's ski industry is in jeopardy. Without the ski industry, a very large portion of Northern Utah's desirability as a place to live goes away'

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#66

Post by metadat »

wang_li wrote: post #62
metadat wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hot take is a little extreme but not too far from the truth. You'll only understand the depths to which the LDS church controls the state and enforces it's social and moral code if you've lived in Utah for an extended period as an outsider. It's pretty fucking weird. - Hard liquor only sold by State Liquor stores, where they digitally record your ID. Only open a few hours a day, and on certain days. Additional s…

>Hard liquor only sold by State Liquor stores, where they digitally record your ID. Similar to about 15 other states. >Only open a few hours a day, and on certain days. 11 AM - 10 PM Monday thru Saturday. If you can't work with those hours you have a different problem than the lack of opportunity to buy alcohol. >Additional state-mandated restrictions on what may be stocked (not too high of proof, etc). Fiendishly ov…

Thanks, maybe my info is out of date, haven't been living in Utah recently. This is how it used to be.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#67

Post by rsweeney21 »

metadat wrote: post #44
R0b0t1 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

The persecution was also rooted in the cult's founder, Joseph Smith, having a thing for "seducing" young girls (14 year olds and even younger) and attempting to add them to his collection of 40 odd wives. His creepy heavenly-sanctioned pedophilic actions and vibe were not well-received by outsiders.

The 14 year old you are referring to is my 3rd great grandmother, Helen Mar Kimball. Her personal journals and her other writings don't agree with your characterization of what took place.

I've gotten used to her being defamed, but it still bothers me.

If you are interested in what actually transpired: Her father, Heber Kimball offered Helen to be sealed to Joseph, to create a spiritual link between the Kimball family and the Smith family. Helen understood it to be like a spiritual betrothal. Nothing much changed about her life after the sealing. She still lived at home with her parents, she went to school and did chores.

She later married Horace Whitney, my 3rd great grandfather, when she was 18 years old and had 11 children with him! She was the first of three wives.

Yes, my great grandparents were polygamists. You can call that strange if you want, but stop defaming her or spreading lies that she was "seduced" or taken advantage of by anyone. Use someone else to disparage Joseph Smith.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#68

Post by tcmart14 »

daveslash wrote: post #37
bitbuilder wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 47 years old, decently educated, and can honestly say I'd never heard of this war and thought this was a great read. Granted, it's quite possible I was taught about this in some very dry history class in high school while I was barely paying attention to the teacher. But I think it's safe to say this isn't a war that comes up often in popular discourse of US history.

I agree with you. Though, I'd also ask, are you in the Utah region or outside? It's easy for us to lose sight of just how huge the U.S. is, and what might be "common history" in one area is obscure bar-trivia somewhere else. We've all heard of the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and WWII and mostly know the broad strokes. I doubt the average person on the street could give you much info on The War of 1812, the Mexi…

Regional history, people don't understand how much there is. I never heard about the one bomb dropping on the continental 48 during World War 2 until I moved to Oregon, because where that happened it probably 2-3 hours away from me (bomb on a balloon). Grew up in the rural south. Like wise, my Wife who grew up in Oregon has never heard of Blair Mountain and the struggle between the the Union and the Mining company. Or she only knows of the Hatfields and McCoys from pop culture reference but doesn't actually know any of the story behind it. The US has a surprising large amount of this.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#69

Post by zdragnar »

metadat wrote: post #46
rwcarlsen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm sure some of that does occur some places in the region, my experience in the Utah/Idaho region is very much the opposite. Friendly and very merit oriented work environments.

Quoted post unavailable.

Tithing is common in most christian denominations, and is legally mandated (and automated) in several European countries via a "church tax" if you're officially registered as a member.

Even the 10% number is derived from the Bible (LEV. 27:30–34). There's nothing particularly nefarious about the Mormons here.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#70

Post by SlickNixon »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #67
metadat wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The persecution was also rooted in the cult's founder, Joseph Smith, having a thing for "seducing" young girls (14 year olds and even younger) and attempting to add them to his collection of 40 odd wives. His creepy heavenly-sanctioned pedophilic actions and vibe were not well-received by outsiders.

The 14 year old you are referring to is my 3rd great grandmother, Helen Mar Kimball. Her personal journals and her other writings don't agree with your characterization of what took place. I've gotten used to her being defamed, but it still bothers me. If you are interested in what actually transpired: Her father, Heber Kimball offered Helen to be sealed to Joseph, to create a spiritual link between the Kimball famil…

>You can call that strange if you want

To ask the most relevant question--do you call it strange?

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