Live data from Hacker News

Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

theregister.com

61–70 of 536 posts

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#61
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

I left embedded for web in 2014 and I doubled my salary overnight. My experience from embedded translated to an ability to troubleshoot problems that baffled others and has led to a lot of personal career growth that I suspect I wouldn't have otherwise seen. Wish it wasn't like this, because I quite miss what I was doing in that previous life, but it is what it is.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit margin. It's all profit margin. Software is reliably >25%, where physical manufacturing is in the single digits.

But the question is why? Shouldn’t there be the same race to single digit margins in software as well?

A different answer than everyone else so far: Leverage.

Super-simple example: a single developer focused just on internal tools for a 10 person company.

Let's say that this company has a full plate, everyone is busy 100% of the time. They can't really bring on new clients. They could hire a new person to do some of the work, but let's say that that new person will cost almost as much as a new client would bring in. Their margins are very tight, they wouldn't be able to expand fast at all, and losing a client would be very perilous.

(This is how a lot of small companies work. People getting laid off because a client went away is something I've seen firsthand.)

Let's say over the course of a year an engineer could build out enough basic, CRUD-app-style automation to free up 30% of everyone else's time. Now you can get multiple new clients for the cost of one new person! And if you can further automate and reduce the drudgery, even more!

(This is also a partial explanation for why the outsourcing, salaries-will-go-to-zero expectations of the early-2000s haven't come to pass: it requires tight communication and a good understand of people's workflows, which is much harder to do across time zone and language barriers. Hardware, on the other hand, needs a firmer spec and less ability to iterate rapidly with rapid communication and feedback.)

Of course the real world is more complicated and some of that automation comes from SaaS tools, etc (a less-direct way of paying those engineers, and something that could be more outsourceable in the long run) but a surprising amount of companies still need hands-on internal expertise to glue everything together. Less code tends to result in more code, because now that you and your competitors have gotten more efficient too, you have to get even more efficient to move the needle again. The thing about business processes is that they will always evolve as old companies die, new ones start, and consumers (both individuals and other companies) want different things.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#63
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

As someone in software with an EE background, I think it's simple. There's far more demand for software people compared to the available supply, so pay rates are high. Which job is "harder" has absolutely nothing to do with it. I noticed the trend about 20 years ago when I decided that I'd never again have a job that was mostly hardware design. The money's in software.

The demand is there. After all, somebody has to be doing the design work for the electronic products out there. In a globalized economy with outsourced production most of the EE work goes to SEA with cheaper labor.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#64
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

> compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while.

I’m sure it’s more complicated than that, but that being said...

Finally someone said it!

Ok, I understand that we’re in some anal-retentive age as humans, where we’re discovering our new digital medium and whatnot, but enough with the fixation on small shiny digital bullshit - it’s robbing us of real depth and wonder.

And if it’s reached to the point where real engineering is depreciated, I wonder what carcasses lie ravaged in fields no one looks at until it’s too late.

> It makes no sense. Why is web software so easy to make money in? Why do we value hard engineering so little?

I think it’s understandable if you explain it using the same reason that mushrooms are clearly the better drug, but cocaine is the more popular one (our dopamine wiring? idk), criss-crossed with an actively pushed economic bubble that’s high on the rise, and will be for a long while.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#65
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

Because picking the right colors on a website brings in more money.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#66
Pay more and get more talent. If a local web startup is paying 2x, 3x, 5x more money for some html and css (and/or whatever language of the week is for the backend), than companies like Intel are paying for serious hardware knowledge, it's no wonder people don't choose this profession.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#67
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

It’s all about demand and supply. It has nothing to do with how hard/easy anything is. So it actually makes perfect sense. Everybody needs web software. Very few needs hard engineering skills.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#69
I recall when there were still engineering magazines and the focus was what was going on in the US. Then, as China was able to dupe the useful idiot free traders, and all the manufacturing went there, there was less and less need for electrical engineers in the US.

Just before those magazines folded, it was more about trying to manage offshored manufacturing than doing any real engineering work. The more tenacious engineers were learning Mandarin to try to stretch their careers, but the writing was on the wall.

China graduates 7 times more engineers than the US now, and most of the people who would be suitable for an EE degree are going into finance or web dev.

Post reply on HN