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Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

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Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#61

Post by lotsofpulp »

Retric wrote: post #48
lotsofpulp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that means less for the executives and shareholders. They may have to sell some of their properties, oh dear. Based on retail business profit margins, it would mean higher prices for customers. Not that that is a bad thing, less consumption would be great.

Competition limits how much they could raise prices, automation and efficiency increases are needed to compete.

Who is more efficient than Amazon/Walmart/Target/Home Depot/Staples/Costco/etc?

They set the bottom price, and if they are earning 2%-4% profit margins, then their costs increases will have to end up in either prices increases or them no longer selling the product.

The funny thing is that it is Amazon coming along and greatly increasing demand for labor (in conjunction with reduced supply of that type of labor) that caused all the other warehouse jobs and retailers to increase pay.

And I hope the labor continues making gains in their quality of life at work and pay, but I do not see this happening without an increase in prices for products (like we have already seen).

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#62

Post by sp332 »

ixwt wrote: post #11
maybeiambatman wrote: post #4

How do legislators just allow this? Isn't this cut and dry illegal?

If I hazarded a guess, this might have not gone through their legal department first.

They've hired a bunch of outside agencies to help union-busting. My guess is that it came from one of them, and that Amazon will sue them for whatever damages are caused by this.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#63

Post by coldpie »

koolba wrote: post #57
yardie wrote: post #23

> By signing a card or filling out an online authorization form, you are authorizing the ALU to speak on your behalf. Yeah, they were great at listening before. Also, where are these unions where the people in it aren't the people it represents. Recently, a school board election ad, "we have to stop the teachers union and start listening to teachers." Well, who the hell is in the teachers union if not teachers?

> Well, who the hell is in the teachers union if not teachers? Professional bureaucrats. Teachers unions in public schools are the worst. They hold our childrens’ futures hostage and get paid out by politicians buying votes, who pass the bill to the next generation.

My mom was a negotiator for the teacher's union for about a decade. She was a para-professional, working with disabled students, for about 20 years. You should try talking with the people you are making claims about. I bet they're very different from what you think.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#64

Post by Retric »

jupp0r wrote: post #53
photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

I don’t think you are taking the price increases and inefficiencies that a nationally isolated economy would produce into account. People with less disposable income would suffer most from this. If you don’t like supply chain issues and inflation right now, you won’t like the model you propose.

How much do you think Amazon can actually raise prices before people just shop elsewhere?

The simple truth is warehouse employee salaries aren’t significant because of throughput. Someone making 30$/hour vs 15$/hour sounds huge but when people are picking 300+ items an hour that’s 5 cents a pop. But, more realistic unionized job would be 17$/hour but only 250 items a sub 2 cents increase.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#66

Post by formerly_proven »

ravel-bar-foo wrote: post #51
yardie wrote: post #23

> By signing a card or filling out an online authorization form, you are authorizing the ALU to speak on your behalf. Yeah, they were great at listening before. Also, where are these unions where the people in it aren't the people it represents. Recently, a school board election ad, "we have to stop the teachers union and start listening to teachers." Well, who the hell is in the teachers union if not teachers?

Larger unions sometimes hire staff to represent their interests who are do not work in the profession represented: negotiators, lawyers, etc. It sets up a bit of a principle/agent problem, but it also makes a lot of sense: a professional lawyer may be much better at negotiating on your behalf than the people from your profession who win the union elections.

At least in theory unions have the correct incentive structure, as they get a fixed percentage of their member's incomes, so to get more money from their members, they need to negotiate better salaries for them.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#67

Post by Jiejeing »

ekianjo wrote: post #49
photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

> he only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If everyone gets paid tomorrow 100 USD/hour, everything around you will start costing 10x more. Look at Switzerland.

Prices in Switzerland are somewhat similar to or a bit higher (and certainly not 10 times) than the US, except for meat.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#68

Post by coldpie »

bombcar wrote: post #41
willyt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union is just a way to make a multilateral contract negotiation between one huge party and hundreds of thousands of very small parties into a bi-lateral contract negotiation between two equals, it’s a completely rational negotiating tactic in a pure capitalist system and it can only be prevented by restricting basic human rights to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of contract and the right to live wi…

The union just makes two huge parties, neither of which the employee has much choice about.

Most unions that have survived 40 years of anti worker propaganda are huge, yes. But they don't have to be. One thing I'm hoping comes out of this recent union revival is an exploration of different union types and sizes, to find new models that work well.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#69

Post by bombcar »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #56
bombcar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were to try to guess, it's that it forces political cooperation on people under threat of not having a job. Imagine the situation where every single company in your state is a union shop (you have to join the union and pay dues if you work) - and every single union is wildly pro-gun, supporting candidates who want everyone to carry two guns (but they'll compromise to only men and only one if pushed). So to live…

I live in a country (Romania) with almost no legal guns, so I am missing some context. I thought that with the USA constitution guns are a right that "shall not be infringed", so what exactly "anti-gun" means: changing the constitution or ignoring it? Most of the news I see, people are trying to ignore it, which is basically ignoring the laws. In this case, Amazon breaking some laws seems to fit well in the picture.

It's an attempt to pick an example that "works" - most people on HN will not be sad that the union supports a political party, because it's the party they also support.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#70

Post by photochemsyn »

jaclaz wrote: post #34
photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

I may be wrong, but besides and before the wage increases, it seems to me like the priority would be for decent working conditions, if what is published from time to time on media is actually true, the biggest issues are about lack of (normal, decent) pauses or rest periods, continuous summoning for increases in productivity, total control on the workers, etc.

All that becomes a lot more tolerable if you're getting double your previous pay.
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