This is timely- I happen to be reading Tai-Pan by James Clavell at the moment, which is a wonderful bit of historical fiction set at this time.
Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
61–70 of 92 posts
Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunately the people he wrote that letter to didnt see them as equals. Did that letter suggest the British were seen as equals? The phrase "barbarian" is used 16 times in the text... --- "The kings of your honorable country by a tradition handed down from generation to generation have always been noted for their politeness and submissiveness." "Privately we are delighted with the way in which the honorable rulers…
> Did that letter suggest the British were seen as equals? No. Chinese emperors saw every other state outside the Celestial Empire as a tributary state and expected a full submission to the Chinese emperor, hence the language. > The phrase "barbarian" is used 16 times in the text «Barbarian» (蠻夷) was a term to refer to anyone else other than a direct subject of the Chinese Empire. Only the Chinese people were conside…
It's a little funny because a word like barbarian carries so many connotations to us today, which is so different from even what Westerners back then would have known. And the connotations of the Chinese word might never have shared any of them.
Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Qing were originally Manchu invaders. And yes, the Qing empire is still viewed by many in China to be illegitimate.
Which is what I find strange about the Century of Humiliation. Why is China losing a minor war that killed a couple thousand Chinese soldiers a great humiliation while getting outright conquered at least twice (once by the Mongols and once by the Manchu) isn't? Tens of millions of Chinese died during the Manchu invasion of China. The Qing forced every Han Chinese male to shave their forehead and wear a queue on the t…
Mongol or Manchu brings more lands to them, and eventually they (Han Chinese) assimilate the invaders. The English took land and the Chinese haven't able to reverence yet. Not to mention this event happened more recently.
Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#64>We find your country is sixty or seventy thousand li [three li make one mile, ordinarily] from China Yet there are barbarian ships that strive to come here for trade for the purpose of making a great profit. The wealth of China is used to profit the barbarians. That is to say, the great profit made by barbarians is all taken from the rightful share of China. By what right do they then in return use the poisonous dru…
Unfortunately the people he wrote that letter to didnt see them as equals. Did that letter suggest the British were seen as equals? The phrase "barbarian" is used 16 times in the text... --- "The kings of your honorable country by a tradition handed down from generation to generation have always been noted for their politeness and submissiveness." "Privately we are delighted with the way in which the honorable rulers…
>The phrase "barbarian" is used 16 times in the text...
Are you trying to suggest that the phrase is inaccurate? If so, what justifications do you present?
Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#65The behavior of the few barbarians undid all the good work done by the company to help both the nations. And sadly the queen did not do anything to stop the barbarians.
Well, England had a massive trade deficit, and failed to find anything the Chinese wanted to buy, except opium. In the end, this was approved by the queen to balance their trade deficit, as they were bleeding silver.
How is it possible that the England had nothing China wanted to buy when England was so technologically superior that they were able to defeat China's military, fighting in China, on the other side of the planet, outnumbered 10 to 1?
Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#66One thing to keep in mind is that the Ching government had already launched an opium war before the British began their narcopolitics. This is from P.E Caquet's "Opium's Orphans" “n the leafy town of Taiyu, Shanxi, an inland Chinese province southwest of Beijing, the district magistrate Chen Lihe had a stele put up for public display. The date was 1817 and, four years earlier, the emperor had issued a raft of regulat…
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Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#67Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which is what I find strange about the Century of Humiliation. Why is China losing a minor war that killed a couple thousand Chinese soldiers a great humiliation while getting outright conquered at least twice (once by the Mongols and once by the Manchu) isn't? Tens of millions of Chinese died during the Manchu invasion of China. The Qing forced every Han Chinese male to shave their forehead and wear a queue on the t…
Mongol or Manchu brings more lands to them, and eventually they (Han Chinese) assimilate the invaders. The English took land and the Chinese haven't able to reverence yet. Not to mention this event happened more recently.
I think this is the main thing. While the Mongols and the Manchus defeated China militarily, they were assimilated culturally within a few generations. Even before the Manchu invasion began, the Manchu leaders were larping as Chinese rulers. Chinese culture always won.
But in England and the West in general, China found an adversary that could defeat them militarily, and which had no interest in adopting their culture or civilization. Quite the contrary, the new foreign invaders were disrepectful of Chinese culture in a way that was new and shocking.
Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Did that letter suggest the British were seen as equals? No. Chinese emperors saw every other state outside the Celestial Empire as a tributary state and expected a full submission to the Chinese emperor, hence the language. > The phrase "barbarian" is used 16 times in the text «Barbarian» (蠻夷) was a term to refer to anyone else other than a direct subject of the Chinese Empire. Only the Chinese people were conside…
It's a little funny because a word like barbarian carries so many connotations to us today, which is so different from even what Westerners back then would have known. And the connotations of the Chinese word might never have shared any of them.
BTW, barbarians were originally the non-Greek from the West, i.e. Europeans.
Re: Lin Zexu's Letter to Queen Victoria (1839)
#70And queue the first Opium War. The Chinese did indeed start a crackdown on opium trade after this, including sending troops to seize warehouses full of it. This action sparked off the first Opium War with Britian, and kicking off the so-called Chinese “Century of Humiliation”.
>queue
...aeons ago, mixing up cue and queue would have been considered an eggcorn. [0] Nowadays, however, "queue" is perfectly cromulent to use in this idiom: the first Opium War has been added to the end of the playlist, and will soon commence.