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Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

barrons.com

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Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#61
Emphasis mine:

> Most of the loans on recently repossessed cars originated during 2020 and 2021, whereas origination dates are normally scattered because people fall on hard times at different times; *loan-to-value ratios, or the amount financed relative to the value of the vehicle, are around 140%, versus a more normal 80%*; and many of the loans were extended to buyers who had temporary pops in income during the pandemic.

That's CRAZY!

This means that lenders were, on average, willing to lend not only the full cost of the vehicle, but also up to 40% of the equity of a previous vehicle! (This sounds like a practice that is more common in subprime land, but still, this suggests that you can basically get a loan with weak proof of being able to pay it back).

This article reminds me of the Air France 447 crash [1].

The long and short of it is that the pilots thought they were level based on the data from the pitot tube sensor, but because it was frozen and a SPOF, they not only got bad data, but they didn't know that the aircraft was actually tilting slowly downwards for hundreds of miles! Eventually, the aircraft stalled unrecoverably and crashed into the ocean.

Auto manufacturers have been increasing prices on new vehicles (and dealers on used vehicles) partly due to supply chain tightening, but also due to a perceived increase in people's willingness-to-pay in response to the tightening and temporary pops in income. However, this article suggests that, like the pitot tube in the AF447 disaster, their WTP data is not only wrong, but sending them the opposite way (and taking their financial forecasting and future stock prices with them when they inevitably bring prices back down to Earth).

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#62

That’s an interesting data point. makes me wonder what other unconventional metrics could be considered to get a temperature on our economy.

Every answer you will get in this thread is wrong because once something becomes well known enough to be tracked, it stops being a “naive indicator”

The warden buffet underwear thing being a prime example. Every Walmart merchandiser now knows that “rule of thumb” and prices underwear against that “common knowledge”

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#63
post #8

Why do people borrow money to buy a car? Why not save money, maybe invest in something safe(ish), and buy your car in cash, preferably used? I get it that people get emotional about cars, but good heavens, this impulse puts you in the hole for years. It's almost as bad as cheating on your wife (and far, far worse than cheating on a gf).

do you have a thing that you really like spending money (or lots of time) on?

if you do, imagine that, but for a car.

some people (myself included) hate driving old cars and don't mind the monthly cost of paying for a car loan.

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People cannot forgo having a car for the time it would take to save up the cash.

Yeah, I’m not buying it. It’s not a choice between having a tricked out 2022 Lexus that costs $70k and no car at all. It’s the choice between a 2005 beater Toyota with 200k miles on it and no car. Once you have that beater, you can start saving for something nicer. Find a make and model with decent reliability history that has hail damage or minor collision damage. It’s not hard to do. If you can’t scrape together $2…

unless you don't care about cars, driving the beater sucks.

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#65
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Car financing is a good way to build credit before buying a home. I've heard people say this, but it's never made sense to me and sounds like something the loan industry has convinced people of just to sell more loans. Is it actually true? Every time I've gotten a mortgage, they seem to just care about my income and whether I've had any missed payments on credit cards or other bills before. And credit scores aren’t…

I mean, that seems somewhat sensible? Why would they give a loan to someone with no income to cover the loan payments? Unless you already had the cash to just pay for it in full, but at that point I'd assume they're worried about why you're asking for the loan if you have more than the value of the loan in liquid assets.

[deleted]

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#66

That’s an interesting data point. makes me wonder what other unconventional metrics could be considered to get a temperature on our economy.

A friend used to work for Korn Ferry, a publicly-traded headhunting firm. She said that their stock was a leading indicator of economic trends because firms halt executive recruiting efforts as they can see warning signs for their business. This happens before the clients issue quarterly revenue guidance that makes their expectations explicit.

good lord. do they refer to themselves as a “headhunting” company, or is that your wording? it’s sort of terrifying, to be completely honest.

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend used to work for Korn Ferry, a publicly-traded headhunting firm. She said that their stock was a leading indicator of economic trends because firms halt executive recruiting efforts as they can see warning signs for their business. This happens before the clients issue quarterly revenue guidance that makes their expectations explicit.

good lord. do they refer to themselves as a “headhunting” company, or is that your wording? it’s sort of terrifying, to be completely honest.

I almost used the more PC term, 'executive recruiting'. But many/most people I know refer to them as 'headhunters'. At least some in the industry object to this term, but it is still widely used by people at large.

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People cannot forgo having a car for the time it would take to save up the cash.

Yeah, I’m not buying it. It’s not a choice between having a tricked out 2022 Lexus that costs $70k and no car at all. It’s the choice between a 2005 beater Toyota with 200k miles on it and no car. Once you have that beater, you can start saving for something nicer. Find a make and model with decent reliability history that has hail damage or minor collision damage. It’s not hard to do. If you can’t scrape together $2…

I don't think this advice really applies anymore. 10 years ago when the equivalent car was a 1995 you could plausibly do something like this, buy the service manual and maintain it yourself. Sure you need the time to do it, but it keeps you from sinking 4x the cost of the car you just described into keeping it running over the next 5 years or so.

Anymore though, many engines just aren't end user serviceable. I'm running a 2007 that requires partially dropping the engine to change the spark plugs, forget replacing a head gasket or alternator.

Yeah don't buy that 70k Lexus, probably don't buy any new car, but that beater you describe is probably $2k for a reason, and the average buyer doesn't have the skill set to evaluate what that reason is, and could easily find themselves needing another $2k beater in a couple years.

Best to go upmarket a bit and get a somewhat more expensive used car, and have it inspected by a mechanic (preferably one you know and trust) before buying. Don't trust the dealer inspection!

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People cannot forgo having a car for the time it would take to save up the cash.

Yeah, I’m not buying it. It’s not a choice between having a tricked out 2022 Lexus that costs $70k and no car at all. It’s the choice between a 2005 beater Toyota with 200k miles on it and no car. Once you have that beater, you can start saving for something nicer. Find a make and model with decent reliability history that has hail damage or minor collision damage. It’s not hard to do. If you can’t scrape together $2…

You’ve clearly never lived paycheck to paycheck, so congratulations on your staggering privilege. You should meet some people who haven’t been as fortunate, you might be surprised how crazy tone deaf this comment is.

Re: Car Repos Are Exploding. That’s a Bad Omen

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re talking about about a guy who only has $5,000 on hand to buy the first car. Those transaction costs are dwarfed by interest payments. I highly doubt his time spent at the tag office and at the dealer buying those cars is going to be worth more than ~$1,500, which is roughly what you’d pay in interest for a 5 year note at 3% interest.

Sales tax alone almost hits this number, at least in high-tax states like CA. The problem is that you're paying sales tax with each car purchase, so if you buy the three cars I mentioned, you pay $400, $800, and $1600 (sum: $2,800) in sales tax with those purchases. If you just buy one $18,000 vehicle, you pay $1,400 in sales tax. Factor in the time spent selling the vehicles (or getting screwed by the dealer on trad…

The whole point of buying the beater is so you can eventually get the car you want. It doesn’t make sense to buy multiple intermediate vehicles to get there.

Remove the second transaction and the associated $800 sales tax and it’s basically a wash. Live in a state with sensible tax rates and it’s a no brainer.

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