Live data from Hacker News

Is the United States Exceptional?

acoup.blog

61–70 of 139 posts

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#61

So there are a number ways in which people define the phrase "American Exceptionalism". I didn't realize there was a debate about it until the phrase became part of the popular vernacular over the past, 5 years? All this time I've been stumbling around thinking it was our ability to run twin deficits (trade and budget) for like 40 years, without any appreciable increase in Treasury yields.

The claim of "American Exceptionalism" was a cornerstone of the Bush Jr. presidency. Notably, the Obama presidency continued it, both in word (speeches) and in action (death from the sky).

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#62
post #9
post #5

This is a common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'exceptional'. The origins of the phrase "American exceptionalism" had nothing to do with greatness or thinking one country is better than another. It is exceptional only in that the country was concieved as an exception to the rule of where its power ultimately comes from. The normal foundation for the state was upon a divinely anointed monarchy. America w…

The thing is, the common misunderstanding is one of the core American tenets. It's one of the core American myths which is directly transmitted through American education, and the vast majority of Americans believe it. Even those that say they don't will recoil when you disprove or contest some key aspects, it's a very ingrained idea. Everyone wants to be part of an exceptional nation because then there's a chance th…

If it is a myth, then it's a noble lie.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#63
First off I think it's good that the author distinguishes between 'greatness' and subjective preference but I think the entire analysis is overly quantitative. It's a very long piece so I'll just take one example, the power and influence across the world:

>"One may of course argue that this situation is changing, albeit slowly, but at the moment the contrast is startling: the sphere of Russian influence does quite reach Kyiv (about 150 miles from the Russian border) and the sphere of Chinese influence does not quite reach Taipei (about the same distance, but over water), but American influence evidently reaches both despite the former being 4,300 miles and the latter 6,500 miles away from American shores."

While that is true one can't talk about influence without talking about depth and quality. Russia and China have more limited reach, but the countries where in particular Russia has had an influence, Russian culture deeply permeates. One only needs to visit Kazakhstan to see the influence from its very system of politics at the top and well into the private homes. US influence around the world is wide but often times quite shallow. It's mirrored in military disappointments despite overwhelming power. Vietnam, Afghanistan recently, and so on. Same in the sphere of culture. Despite the overwhelming dominance of the US and the UK as well and, the Chinese haven't all become American, as people are noticing now, despite what they thought in the 90s. Even South America diverges pretty widely from the US compared to say, Russia and its direct periphery.

And I think this is to an extent true within the US as well. The author rightfully points out the dominance of US education in sheer numbers, but the US also seems to have unique troubles to translate this into social tools. For all the high quality of top tier American education and money, it hasn't necessarily created exceptional outcomes broadly, even compared to much poorer nations.

There's a thinness to American exceptionalism that is often masked by the focus on numbers and size. While the country is exceptionally rich, the life expectancy is not exceptionally high, but lower than in Cuba. And I think articles like this which pretend to be objective do intentionally wave that aside.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#64
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what definition of exceptionalism are you using to come to that conclusion? Is it possible to be exceptionally narcistic or exceptionally sadistic?

Clearly the ambiguity is taken advantage of wherever convenient.

I'm not sure I catch your meaning. Exceptional is a magnitude in my mind. It needs an adjective to go along with it

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#65

A nation founded on the principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is indeed exceptional. The results have been exceptional, too. The US does indeed have plenty of problems, but those problems are usually traceable to neglecting those founding principles.

White men of property, you mean. Nobody else was exceptional.

Of course, Jefferson's words established no basis in American law. It was signed before America existed. The Treaty of Paris ending the war established America only as a sovereign country, not a free one. (We were free of monarchy only). In fact, the intended audience for both documents was international, not national.

Never a legal document, the Declaration was mostly two things: advertising -- in the hope that enemies of England might give us money in order to annoy King George, and cheerleading -- in the hope America's troops wouldn't lose heart at the slow pace of the war and its woeful prospects, and desert, as many did.

We continue to harken to the Declaration only because the pretty words make it easier to dismiss proofs of contradiction like slavery and wars of adventure.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#66
post #9
post #5

This is a common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'exceptional'. The origins of the phrase "American exceptionalism" had nothing to do with greatness or thinking one country is better than another. It is exceptional only in that the country was concieved as an exception to the rule of where its power ultimately comes from. The normal foundation for the state was upon a divinely anointed monarchy. America w…

The thing is, the common misunderstanding is one of the core American tenets. It's one of the core American myths which is directly transmitted through American education, and the vast majority of Americans believe it. Even those that say they don't will recoil when you disprove or contest some key aspects, it's a very ingrained idea. Everyone wants to be part of an exceptional nation because then there's a chance th…

I'm American and the first time I remember hearing the term "American exceptionalism" was when I was about 30 years old. Even then, I've almost always heard it brought up in the context of questioning it. Maybe once or twice I've heard a politician on TV professing to believe in it. To this day I'm still not sure I know what the phrase is supposed to mean.

So I don't think it's as widespread as you say, though I can easily imagine that it's a popular idea in certain segments of the population.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#67
All the facts here are fine but I'm left wondering, what are the stakes of "proving" how great America is? What good do all those aircraft carriers do me? Holding down the Chinese, I guess. But then, isn't holding the rest of the world down while the "American way of life" carries on the whole point of all this "greatness"?

At the end of WWII, America was the last rich country standing and proceeded to go round the world kicking out left-wing governments (unfriendly or not) and installing right-wing ones. The result was unprecedented profits and security for American corporations, and some of that wealth undoubtedly trickled down. But I'm left thinking about the cost. Is it any wonder Russia, Iran, South America, etc. would distrust us and want us out of their business?

The comparison at the end to the Mongols feels apt, since while their empire was undeniably great, it is very difficult to argue that they were a force for good in the lives of the people on whose backs that greatness was won.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#68
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. The reasons where US shines & is able to draw talent is probably several of these: * US is absolutely the leader in innovation. No doubts about it. * Champion of democracy. The US political system & constitution has inspired a lot of other countries. Its a very immaculately drawn political system built on checks & balances * High degree of choices to an individual to shape his life * High degree of demographic…

I don't think it was intentional, but given the recent Roe v Wade controversy I find it amusing that your wrote "High degree of choices to an individual to shape _his_ life". Gave me a chuckle.

I didn't factor in Roe vs. Wade. It was not intentional or any veiled sarcasm.

What I meant is that unlike a lot of countries where you are bottlenecked by choices of educational specialization, profession, career & personal development, as a US resident one doesn't face any of these. There is ample scope to pursue your interests or take risks to change your career path, things which are unthinkable in the aforementioned situation.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#69
post #48

Yes. It's one of the few countries where citizens are protected from the government. This means anyone can make huge mistakes, and it's viewed as immoral to stop them. Myopically, it drives a politics of fear and control ('Won't someone please think of the children [who we don't consider people with rights, so as to individually choose not to go to school, for example]'). Long term, America has provided more progress…

Conversely, the EU is one of the few economies where citizens are protected from abuse by corporations. In America, mostly we're not. Choose your poison.

Does that make the EU exceptional too?

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#70
IMHO, the article boils down to the fact that the US is the top superpower in the first fully globalised era, and that to me explains why it seems to be "exceptional".

It doesn't mean that it is more exceptional than earlier superpowers, like Rome, or Spain or Great Britain, if we account for the increased interconnectedness of the world. It also doesn't imply that all of these statistics may not one day apply (even more so) to a completely different country, such as maybe China.

But most of all, I don't think any of it implies that this is fully due to any intrinsic qualities of the US per se. While those certainly played a role, so did accidents of history. Had Europe not been so dumb to go to war twice in the 20th century, maybe we would think of Great Britain as "exceptional".

I also don't like how the author continues to use the adjective "great", despite acknowledging that it might be confused with "good". It's probably problematic that we speak of "Alexander the Great" too, but we do so due to historiographic tradition. There's IMHO no need to carry over this baggage to contemporary history. We can just call the US "important" or "a superpower", which is what it is, without using adjectives which so clearly imply moral judgement that the author immediately has to distance themselves from it (and IMHO in a rather half-hearted manner).

Post reply on HN