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Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

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Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#61

Post by rossdavidh »

It would seem like the more obvious lesson would be, "when in conditions very different from what that species evolved for, new and often serious problems will arise". Which is, no doubt, true and even relevant. But, since we evolved for conditions very different than rats did, I'm not sure how much more can be concluded.

It does point out, though, the importance of being skeptical of any other scientific study done in rats, that hasn't been replicated with several other mammalian species. Or at least, skeptical of applying the "lessons learned" to humans.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#62

Post by wongarsu »

throwaway4aday wrote: post #54
wongarsu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are more adaptable even without explicit communication. We seem to vary our reproduction rate based on the life expectancy of our offspring. Lots of children during and shortly after war, or when child mortality is high, but much fewer when it's near certain that our offspring will live to old age. Though we have some other problems like tribalism that might be down to the environment we evolved in, and not ha…

> We seem to vary our reproduction rate based on the life expectancy of our offspring I don't think the life expectancy of the offspring is the only factor. Birth control certainly contributes, education is known to as well, wealth, working status and legal equality of women, and now there seems to be a whole new set of influences on the younger generations. It also doesn't seem to be a finely tuned feedback system,…

You are right that there are certainly countless factors, and it's a messy system. You can clearly see economic troubles suppressing birth numbers, or the introduction of the pill that drove most Western societies to a birth rate below the replacement level. You can also see clear differences caused by politics/ideological systems. But the coupling between birth rate and death rate seems the strongest overall predictor, with the lag between the two driving many population booms. As a consequence, Western nations saw the biggest decline in birth rates in the beginning of the 20th century [1]

1: https://i.imgur.com/jhyvMWX.png

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#64

Post by bannedbybros »

dalbasal wrote: post #45

One of those topics where the meta is richer than the actual science. I remember my Dad mentioning as a child. The public interest is interesting in itself. Not the the science isn't interesting. Population/behavioural studies like this are quite interesting. Animal behaviour is interesting, especially group behaviours where dynamics can play out. That said, what was he actually trying to learn? If you take the same…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#66

Post by rsynnott »

swayvil wrote: post #52
rsynnott wrote: post #48

> In earlier utopias involving rats Well, there's a phrase you don't see much. This does feel like a kind of retro quasi-Malthusian concern these days, though. In practice, populations tend to stabilize as the economy develops, and the earth is now expected to hit peak population within decades.

We can shift "peak population" forward by instituting progressively dystopian measures. "The city" is one such measure. We can also sacrifice quality of food, air... And imagine how many we could pack in if everybody stayed at home and played on their computer.

But I mean, the point is, we're _not_ shifting it forward. It is moving backwards (and smaller; most estimates are now for a peak of about 10bn, vs far more extravagant estimates in the past), closer to the present than would generally have been expected a few decades ago. In the 50s, many people didn't think there'd be a natural peak population at all; they were going with full Malthusianism.

In practice, population growth tends to slow down and eventually reverse more or less naturally in advanced industrial economies.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#67

Post by mlatu »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #30
mlatu wrote: post #28

i think this shows only that social species' behaviours are fine tuned to the environment they have evolved in and drastically changing said environment requires the species to adapt in order to survive. i feel like there should be a pen size above which such an experiment might run indefinetly. but my gut tells me: no matter the size, it will always eventually crash and burn because mice can't "talk it out" i think…

I was following that until the language thing. How does talking, make more room?

when was the last time you had to fight with someone using just words and how do you think would that interaction have been if you and your counterpart had not used words but teeth, fists and fingernails instead?

assuming you had the same standing to each other prior to the fight, would you two be able to interact the same afterwards, regardless who won?

it doesnt make more room, but it allows for compromises

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#68

Post by Someone »

NineStarPoint wrote: post #47
dalbasal wrote: post #45

One of those topics where the meta is richer than the actual science. I remember my Dad mentioning as a child. The public interest is interesting in itself. Not the the science isn't interesting. Population/behavioural studies like this are quite interesting. Animal behaviour is interesting, especially group behaviours where dynamics can play out. That said, what was he actually trying to learn? If you take the same…

It’s interesting to me at least that the group’s population crashed completely to zero and not to just a low number that then began climbing again. This is undoubtably a consequence of mice not being able to escape from the chaos due to the small size of the territory, but I do wonder what the minimum viable size would be to allow for a full boom-bust-boom cycle to occur.

But there wouldn’t be chaos anymore by the time population dropped to a few hundred.

Between the two moments of equal population something must have changed in the population, either genetically or, IMO more likely, culturally.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#69

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mlatu wrote: post #67
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was following that until the language thing. How does talking, make more room?

when was the last time you had to fight with someone using just words and how do you think would that interaction have been if you and your counterpart had not used words but teeth, fists and fingernails instead? assuming you had the same standing to each other prior to the fight, would you two be able to interact the same afterwards, regardless who won? it doesnt make more room, but it allows for compromises

Humans haven't had a good track record. I don't imagine mice would do any better.
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