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Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

ominoushum.com

61–70 of 328 posts

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#61

This actually might be unpickable. But the small space of keys (6^6 combinations) makes me think you could just fabricate every single key and test them one by one, if you were really determined

If you can test one key a second (which is unlikely), that's over 12 hours to try all the keys, not to mention having to lug over 800 pounds of keys to the lock in the first place. It's possible, but certainly impractical.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#62

I do feel that selective brute forcing is going to become popular one day or another e.g. a key with mechanical sections to actuate the pins to specific heights, plus, a very precise rotational sensor (perhaps acoustic sensors too) but anyways, potential but easily fixable methods: a magnet with enough force to pull the slider would give tension, so just don't make it ferrous the slider will always get super close to…

brute force attack in this context is probably less technical (a hammer and a cold chisel)

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#63
Obvious derivative would be two cores inside each other. Outer core follows the inner core some ten degrees and the opportunity to test pins is gone when you tension the inner core. This might be more robust than that sliding thing. Except the "stack of thin wafers" disappears when the lock wears out.

But then, alas, the outer core could made of short rings. Rings must move in unison, and LPL can not tension them all at the same time. "Stack of wafers" not needed. (And thus I accidentally invented combination of disc lock and pin lock. The inner pin lock gives solution the outer disc lock. Patent not pending.. :-)

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#64
post #47

What's the threat model? Does this lock secure a location that has no windows? Can a sledgehammer be used to open the door? Ok, so maybe covert entry is harder. Do you care THAT much about covert entry? If you care that much about covert entry, do you also have video monitoring? Security solutions need to be used in context.

Your points are technically true but effectively vacuous, equally applicable to all possible door locks. Is there someone claiming that just because this lock is (allegedly) unpickable, it's a complete security solution, so that you felt you had to comment on the importance of other approaches to security?

No, I'm saying that people have an irrational desire for an unpickable lock, perhaps not having considered their security/threat model.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#65

This looks very similar to the design[0] by Stuff Made Here (and collaborative hardening [1] suggestions by Lock Picking Lawyer)…an excellent set of videos. https://youtu.be/2A2NY29iQdI https://youtu.be/Ecy1FBdCRbQ

There’s also a lock on that channel he can’t pick - the bowley I think? It has a wild key design.

He can't pick the Abloy Protect2 lock. Less than 10 people in the world can pick it actually.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#66
post #47

What's the threat model? Does this lock secure a location that has no windows? Can a sledgehammer be used to open the door? Ok, so maybe covert entry is harder. Do you care THAT much about covert entry? If you care that much about covert entry, do you also have video monitoring? Security solutions need to be used in context.

besides the fact that dragging a sledgehammer into the department of defense is really obvious.

And that hitting something with a sledge or smashing a window would both activate alarms, and just, be really loud regardless.

Yes, there is places without windows and with reinforced doors

Even setting that aside, impressioning attacks require only seconds at a doorway for each step in the process, this defeats that attack.

bump keys only requires ~30 seconds if you are lucky, this defeats that

And yes DoD has security cameras, most places do actually.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#67
post #38

This does seem like it might be vulnerable to a comb pick attack, if you can push all those wafer stacks into the sliding bar.

The stock has overlift bars. It isn't detailed on the website but it is mentioned in the youtube video linked in another comment.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#68

This looks very similar to the design[0] by Stuff Made Here (and collaborative hardening [1] suggestions by Lock Picking Lawyer)…an excellent set of videos. https://youtu.be/2A2NY29iQdI https://youtu.be/Ecy1FBdCRbQ

There’s also a lock on that channel he can’t pick - the bowley I think? It has a wild key design.

The Bowley has been picked last year.

https://youtu.be/ai5Hf-wPXFE and he mentions it's a collaboration at 4:29.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#69

Interesting design. I made a lock a couple years ago that is quite similar in principle (though this design is different and has a couple nice improvements). https://youtu.be/_7vPNcnYWQ4 One of my main goals is to be an inspiration, though if it was based by my design I wish they’d credit it. Especially since they’re patenting it.

Yeah I immediately thought of your work when I saw this. The key insight is the same, even if the implementation is different. Everything you do is fascinating by the way!

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#70

Interesting design. I made a lock a couple years ago that is quite similar in principle (though this design is different and has a couple nice improvements). https://youtu.be/_7vPNcnYWQ4 One of my main goals is to be an inspiration, though if it was based by my design I wish they’d credit it. Especially since they’re patenting it.

The interaction of engineering and "use" by the Lock Picking Lawyer (https://youtu.be/Ecy1FBdCRbQ) was fascinating - "use" here really meaning "exploiting". It's a problem many here are aware of, either by over-engineering things intended for use by non-engineers, or designing things to be used by customers when the designer isn't intimately familiar with the use. In this case it was sort of somewhere in between.

I'm currently an operator of heavy machinery in a factory making tools for the wafer industry, although my main career is in software development. I'm actively working with the tools and software used to get a better understanding of the disconnect between engineering and operations. It's been a great way to consider how to improve tools in ways that aren't just "better" from a software/engineering standpoint.

Also, holy cow. I've watched all of your videos multiple times. You are truly an inspiration. Thank you, and apologies for the fanboying.

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