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Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

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Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#61

Post by piva00 »

scotty79 wrote: post #60
piva00 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the future I expect to see BTC to mainly utilized for these types of financial transfers and less as a long-term store of value. I have, in Sweden, the options of Swish and SEPA to transfer money. Swish is internal to Swedish residents, so to anyone who has Swish tied to their bank account I can instantly send money knowing their phone number. With SEPA Instant Transfer I can send money anywhere in the EU, up to…

SEPA takes 10 seconds? My bank only guarantees it'll reach recipient in 24h and I have strong suspicion they only mean business days.

SEPA Instant Transfer takes 10 seconds, a normal SEPA Transfer takes 1 business day [0].

[0] https://www.paysera.com/v2/en/blog/what-is-sepa

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#62

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

scotty79 wrote: post #60
piva00 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the future I expect to see BTC to mainly utilized for these types of financial transfers and less as a long-term store of value. I have, in Sweden, the options of Swish and SEPA to transfer money. Swish is internal to Swedish residents, so to anyone who has Swish tied to their bank account I can instantly send money knowing their phone number. With SEPA Instant Transfer I can send money anywhere in the EU, up to…

SEPA takes 10 seconds? My bank only guarantees it'll reach recipient in 24h and I have strong suspicion they only mean business days.

> SEPA takes 10 seconds?

Yep. I see similar (or lower) timings for 2 or 3 digit amounts transferred between accounts in the same country (UK).

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#63

Post by macinjosh »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #36
macinjosh wrote: post #27

Humans are so funny. Blaming the flawed tools we create for the problems caused by using them in all of our flawed manners. Bitcoin is a tool, like any other. Tools can be used constructively or destructively. The ease and affordability of transferring remittances internationally is the single most useful case for Bitcoin. In those instances value is not kept in BTC except for the duration of the transfer so it is no…

> The ease and affordability of transferring remittances internationally is the single most useful case for Bitcoin. This is demonstratably false. The problem has been solved elsewhere in the world, much better than in the US, without any bitcoin or crypto at all. > In the US it can still take days for a check or transfer to clear. As noted, "in the US" is your problem. Also "hasty generalisation". > In the future I…

> wise.com is laughing. M-Pesa is laughing. EU SEPA is laughing.

Not sure how SEPA helps an immigrant in the US trying to send money back home. Or a million other situations not involving places that have SEPA.

Your other options are greedy corporations. Wise wants $7 to transfer 1000 bucks to Europe. Bitcoin will continue working if corporations fail, change policies, arbitrarily decide not to do business with you, or jack up prices. Bitcoin is not subject to the whims of a single private organization.

Government sponsored options are also beholden to all sorts of invasive inspection as well. If you want to send more than $10k it can be a lot more work in some places.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#64

Post by birracerveza »

regularjack wrote: post #57
olalonde wrote: post #46

Yet another "criticism" which is entirely focused on price and groups together a bunch of unrelated people, companies and cryptocurrencies...

I mean, yes? That's what the article is about, the cryptocurrency space. What subjects do you think it should discuss instead?

There is a technological foundation that gets lost between all the money games that are being played on top of it and gets ignored or dismissed as a result, so you get opinions like "Bitcoin Is A Hideous Monstrosity Made Out Of Computers And Greed That Must Be Destroyed Before It Devours The World".

There is no room for discussion here, and it's depressing to see how many people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater; instead of asking for it to be regulated in a sane manner they want to outright ban the use of said technology, which I would define as barbaric... imagine banning fire because people got burnt!

The blockchain, smart contracts and NFTs are amazing technologies that could do wonders for mankind if properly used, but too many people, including tech literates, refuse to dig into it after seeing folks being defrauded out of their life savings and ruining their lives because they took a loan for hundreds of thousands of dollars on a jpeg of a badly drawn monkey.

For them crypto is bad, period. There is nothing else to talk about because it's an absolute truth, what subject should there be to discuss? Might as well argue about the possibility of God not existing with religious extremists.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#65

Post by ephbit »

throwawash wrote: post #50
immigrantheart wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are economists with deep understanding of finance and economy that disagree with you.

Where can I read their points of view? Can you provide some links by any chance?

Safedean Ammous isn't 100 % studied economist. But according to his CV he studied at London School of Economics, also gave economics lectures and was/is assistant professor of economics at Lebanese American University (Beirut). [1]

I'd recommend listening to his interview with Lex Fridman. [2]

[1] https://capitalism.columbia.edu/files/ccs/person/cv/2015/amm...

[2] https://lexfridman.com/saifedean-ammous/

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#66

Post by trashtester »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47
hardmoney99 wrote: post #13

Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Critics don't get it because they lump it together with "cryptocurrency". While technically a cryptocurrency, Bitcoin does not exhibit any of the ponzi, scam-like shenanigans that are easily observable in shitcoins. Yes, there is a lot of crazy stuff happening with wash trading - but this is a byproduct of lack of regulation and has nothing to d…

> Bitcoin is a financial freedom tool Usually when describing something in the face of scrutiny, one describes a use case. If someone questions the validity of hammers, the solution isn't to say "we call this a hammer." It's to show how hammers are used. I doubt most crypto folks have any idea of credit markets or central banking. What they have expertise in is the manipulation of money. Bitcoin, and all of crypto, i…

Most of them watched some youtube video providing a conspiracy theory view on banking, "fiat" currencies and debt-as-money.

They think they have deep insights when saying "banks create money out of thin air", or "there is not enough money in the economy to pay down all debt". They also use the word "fiat" as if it's bad that a currency is backed by a government.

All the above are strong indication that there is something fundamental about the monetary system that someone fails to understand.

A lot of crypto has been bought because the buyer were under such illusions.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#67

Post by adrianchifor »

Many of my Ukraininan/Russian friends would not be alive today if it wasn't for crypto, same goes for many journalists and innocent civilians that escaped controlling governments, war zones, hyperinflation etc. Show me another asset that you can take with you in times of crisis on a usb stick or piece of paper, and transact without middle-men globally. A significant number of people live in places where saying/doing something controversial can get your assets frozen (Canada '22) or much worse.

Sure BTC uses a lot of electricity, but so does the US military which is key to maintaining the $ as global reserve currency. There are many people and projects in crypto trying to do the right thing about energy (https://ethereum.org/en/energy-consumption/).

Dunno why you would fight against a fair, open, censorship-resistant, global financial system, unless you're a dictator. You won't need it, until you do.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#68

Post by macinjosh »

Nursie wrote: post #33
macinjosh wrote: post #27

Humans are so funny. Blaming the flawed tools we create for the problems caused by using them in all of our flawed manners. Bitcoin is a tool, like any other. Tools can be used constructively or destructively. The ease and affordability of transferring remittances internationally is the single most useful case for Bitcoin. In those instances value is not kept in BTC except for the duration of the transfer so it is no…

> In the US Problem identified.

Hateful much? Sorry I was born here and not the super awesome perfect place you are from.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#69

Post by trashtester »

hardmoney99 wrote: post #31
NoticeMeSenpai wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Sorry this is all too vague. How do you define "broken" and what does this post-debt-driven economy look like? >They don't need articles like this one to tell them why their needs are unmet by the traditional finance system. Whats the use case here exactly?

>Sorry this is all too vague. How do you define "broken" and what does this post-debt-driven economy look like? Look up % of world population living in hyperinlationary environments to get your answer. The post-debt driven economy is one where a handful of people cannot devalue your labor with a press of a button. > Whats the use case here exactly? Freedom from corrupt governments that debase your currency into obliv…

If you look into the details of a hyper-inflation environment (such as Germany in 1922-23), labor tends to retain its value pretty well under such conditions. Laborers would re-negotiate their salary every morning, and tended to do pretty well.

Bank deposits go to 0 though, as would most savings that did not grant control of some inflation-resistent revenue-flow.

Anyway, true hyperinflation is extremely rare. The most recent case I'm aware of, was Venezuela around 2013. To my knowledge, 0% of the pupulation lives under true hyperinflation today.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#70

Post by ephbit »

hnews_account_1 wrote: post #34
hardmoney99 wrote: post #13

Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Critics don't get it because they lump it together with "cryptocurrency". While technically a cryptocurrency, Bitcoin does not exhibit any of the ponzi, scam-like shenanigans that are easily observable in shitcoins. Yes, there is a lot of crazy stuff happening with wash trading - but this is a byproduct of lack of regulation and has nothing to d…

I have a deep understanding of all of the latter. I work in capital markets daily. I do not know anyone serious with my level of experience in the actual markets who thinks bitcoin is the answer. There are several issues with tradFi. Pointing that out is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. In some cases, people are working on a fix. In other cases, the inefficiency and criminal activity is not ceasing because the…

> There is no wealth distribution in a hard money paradigm that makes sense.

Care to explain how one can come to this claim based on first principles?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this sentence of yours. I read it as: a hard money paradigm will inevitably lead to a very undesirable wealth distribuation (Gini coefficient --> 1) and there's no way to fix/prevent this other than moving from hard money to soft money.

I'd refute this claim. There are completely obvious ways to prevent Gini --> 1. Effective redistribution from wealthy to poor. The only hurdle to that is political systems, voters, governments or monarchs deciding to and then enacting it. Absolutely possible.

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