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What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

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Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#61

Post by pessimizer »

jhap wrote: post #42
throwaway5752 wrote: post #39

People speak in tongues at church because they are expected to, have seen it before, and they lie about it. It seems that should be the presumption in the case of Delphi, too, rather than a biochemical mechanism or "antipositivism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_tongues#Medical_re...

I don't think most people "lie about it", at least not intentionally. I think it's more likely they get really caught up in the moment or something among those lines. I am interested in what in what it would be like to go to a concert of a bar with one of these people.

> I don't think most people "lie about it", at least not intentionally.

No, they do, and are usually pushed into it by prayer retreats and a forced lack of sleep (in the stories I've heard.) It's after they fake it once in order to sleep, then get into the habit of faking it, that they decide that they were never actually faking it, retconning the first incident into an awakening.

It was once only tiny pentecostal sects that did this (speak in tongues), but evangelical churches grew out of that tradition and took over the world. Literally didn't exist 100 years ago. It's also where we got faith healing and snake-handling.

edit: Again, barely older than Scientology or the Nation of Islam.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#62

Post by quinnjh »

coeneedell wrote: post #53
kordlessagain wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an example of Positivism. I think the primary problem with positivism is the knowledge about the universe is never fully attained, so it feels more like a confused reasoning process. The assumption the scientific method will explain everything someday is irrational. When is that going to happen? With more work? What positivism really is, is a commitment to a bunch of work in the future to "prove" something is…

Well okay, but when the scientific method produces knowledge, the voracity of that knowledge can be checked by an observer. When a mystic convinces a large number of people that their opinions are in fact, truths, that is not a process that can be checked by an observer, and the “knowledge” produced has nothing tying itself back to reality.

How do corporations forecast the future?

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#63

Post by quinnjh »

murbard2 wrote: post #19

This isn't asking the hard question though: how did the oracle see the future?

Probably the same way you can construct a data oracle to project out guesses for what a time series will do?

The thinking goes: the more, nd better sources of market intelligence you can feed to the oracle, the better predictions it can make.

I would assume the oracle at delphi was being fed the most / best market intelligence to then prophesize from

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#65

Post by andi999 »

goto11 wrote: post #51

The final point about positivism is important. Geeks love naturalistic explanations of mythological ideas, however far fetched. Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals. Dragons are dinosaurs. The witch craze was due to ergot poisoning etc. If anyone is interested in what actual historians think about such theories, read for example this: https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/06/delphic-oracle.ht... Tl/dr:…

How can dragons be memories of dinosaurs? Or do you think some skeletons were found?

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#66

Post by ProjectArcturis »

andi999 wrote: post #65
goto11 wrote: post #51

The final point about positivism is important. Geeks love naturalistic explanations of mythological ideas, however far fetched. Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals. Dragons are dinosaurs. The witch craze was due to ergot poisoning etc. If anyone is interested in what actual historians think about such theories, read for example this: https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/06/delphic-oracle.ht... Tl/dr:…

How can dragons be memories of dinosaurs? Or do you think some skeletons were found?

The identification of dinosaurs as dragons is a common theory but I believe the historical evidence for it is extremely sparse. Still, it is really strange to me that dinosaur bones were only officially discovered in 1841.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#67

Post by shkkmo »

kordlessagain wrote: post #37
mcphage wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think first it would need to be established that she did in fact see the future.

This is an example of Positivism. I think the primary problem with positivism is the knowledge about the universe is never fully attained, so it feels more like a confused reasoning process. The assumption the scientific method will explain everything someday is irrational. When is that going to happen? With more work? What positivism really is, is a commitment to a bunch of work in the future to "prove" something is…

Mysticism is a not an "understanding of the world" but a way of framing our knowledge of the world and coping with the unknown and the unknowable.

The realm of the unknown and the unknowable shrinks as our tools advance but there are very good reasons to think it will never disappear as there are both provably unknowable truths amd facts that are practicaly impossible to learn.

> Faith takes over there, where just believing something irrational to be true, makes it true.

This only applies to a limited set of things (the unknowable), getting enough people to believe the world is flat won't make that a true belief, no matter how many people have how much faith.

The types of things that faith can make true are subjective, sociocultural or related to our inner lives.

> Unfortunately, the scientific method is a bit annoying sometimes, given it's absolute insistence all things may be disproved.

In no way, shape or form does the scientific method suggest this, let alone insist on it.

There is a long history of faith pairing quite productively with the scientific method. The network of scientific knowledge is primarily drive by one thing: curiosity, not any sort of animus against the mystical.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#68

Post by jotm »

murbard2 wrote: post #19

This isn't asking the hard question though: how did the oracle see the future?

Same way I can see the future of everyone commenting here with near 100% accuracy.

If you're curious, I can see that you will die.

If you're scared, I can help you avoid death for only $4.99/day or a war against Lichtenstein, your choice.

Do as I say, or do you really want to risk dying tomorrow?

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#70

Post by lordnacho »

Cynical me thinks the simplest explanation is it was all just a big show they put on. Similar to when my aunt went to a fortune teller who guessed she had six kids. The fortune teller was probably just well informed about the local environment.

If you're running an Oracle business, your customers are already locked in. It's a long pilgrimage to get there, so you've probably got something important to ask about. The sales people will know roughly what kind of relational data is precious to you, and your branding makes Oracle a natural choice, despite what the techies of the time might say (it's expensive! There's a free and open source that we can get high at!). Once they're there, you keep the magic going by offering associated services. Maybe a bit if consulting on what the old lady said. Of course the consulting will always include coming back for more prophesies.

Most of the business is knowing what kinds of things people want to hear, and feeding back a few things you found. After all it's only once a month there's a seance, the rest of the time can be spent hanging around finding out what the customers want.

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