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The Xinjiang Police Files

xinjiangpolicefiles.org

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Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#61

Post by oreally »

rich_sasha wrote: post #57
oreally wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC china invited many nations to xinjiang, not just muslims but some western-aligned countries too. The muslim countries and said it was fine and no major mistreatment was going on, while I believe some western countries refused to go, claiming some sort of taint. So if you believe something, then you get invited to see what's going on, and you refuse, what does that say about you? It's the makings of a thought bub…

It's very, very hard to know what's really going on in a totalitarian / authoritarian country, even when they let you in and explore unreservedly. Famously, the Red Cross inspected one Nazi concentration camp and gave it the thumbs up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_Ghetto_and_the_... Needless to say, there was nothing good about that camp, or any of the other ones.

First, how can you get closer to the truth without ever going to the damn place?

Second, I agree there's a capability of falsification from either side, be it china or a news outlet. But neither does it translate to guilt on either side.

In the absence of such you'll have to consider from the first principles, and you'll find the US/west/people involve have a lot more incentive to keep china down. As such the better entities to trust are the third parties, ala the muslim states.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#62

Post by [deleted] »

__alexs wrote: post #21

Every great nation is built on unspeakably evil things like this. It seems almost like it's part of the cost of entry to being a super power. This isn't an apology for China. It's about time they moved to the 'maturity' stage of an empires life.

[deleted]

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#63

Post by philliphaydon »

oreally wrote: post #41
chrischen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain his controversy (I wasn't able to find anything on a quick Google search)?

Here's a quora: https://www.quora.com/How-credible-are-Adrian-Zenz-one-of-th... and a quote: " Zenz’ academic qualifications, much touted, don’t stand up to much scrutiny. His h-index is 12, about a quarter of the 40 that a ‘good’ academic should have, especially a mid-career 47-year old. His roles are all with anti-China think tanks, not academic positions. He’s in a bubble of anti-Communism and anti-China funding a…

At the end of the day, if all the claims about Xinjiang are false and everything is really peachy and rosey as the CCP claims it to be, then they should allow 100% absolute freedom of the press to go in and check it out.

That will however never happen because it's clearly obvious there is something to hide.

So far all the CCP has done is allow some journalists to go to specific areas, are followed and controlled and forced to abide by rules and procedures designed to ensure that the CCP sets the narrative. Influencers are taken on tours to the same places, shown the exact same things, etc, and all this happens 100 miles away from where the re-education camps are apparently located.

So who do we believe? The guy who is waving a flag saying "guys look at whats going on" or the guy who is saying "you can't come and see here, that guy is lying, hes a liar! He has no credentials, he's western propaganda, hes fake news. There's no need to come here and see anything cos he's lying"

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#64

Post by sangram_jaipur »

ChemSpider wrote: post #44
4ggr0 wrote: post #28

I hope that this is a genuine leak showing what's going on there. Just don't like the organisation behind this leak, at all, and don't really trust them. But as long as this leak is objective I can ignore this aspect. Really sickening to see what's going on in Xinjiang. EDIT: I said it's sickening to see what's going on and i strongly oppose what China is doing in Xinjang, am I really getting downvotes just because I…

This is an effort by many. So cut that crap. If you have real doubts spell them out clearly. Journalists e. g. from German Spiegel.de and other participating newspapers found and spoke directly with relatives of these people, and thus verified that the data leak is real.

It was founded by Heritage Foundation founders and they hold power to influence research directions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Communism_Memorial_... Now the report is independently verified so it is legitimate, but that does not mean the foundation does not bring direct political influence in discussions. Heritage Foundation amongst other non-scientific stuff denies Climate Change, promotes theory of Voting Fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#65

Post by tragomaskhalos »

The calls for affirmative action against China had a very low probability of bearing fruit beforehand, but since the Russian invasion of Ukraine I would put them at 0% - no sane politician wants to do anything that will push the Chinese further into common ground with Russia.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#66

Post by ourlordcaffeine »

bradleykingz wrote: post #2

The hacker must have trouble walking around... y'know, because of his gigantic balls? All jokes aside, I wonder how denialists will react to this. And I'm curious how China will attempt to explain this away. Can't wait for more detailed reports to come out. BBC's report [1] has been particularly interesting so far. I wonder what happens next. 1. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-c...

>I wonder how denialists will react to this

Claim it's all made up by Adrian Zenz and the BBC and the uighurs are all living happily

>And I'm curious how China will attempt to explain this away.

Claim it's all made up by the BBC and "anti-China" forces

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#67

Post by enaaem »

shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

That’s why, as a westerner, I consider the Uyghur issue not to be ‘our’ problem. It’s terrible what’s happening there, but there are more than 2 billion muslims in the world who can do something about it.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#68

Post by trhway »

trasz wrote: post #15
gbear605 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The torture seems similar, but the scale is completely different. In Xinjiang, it’s been at least 1.2 million people making up a sizable portion of all Uighur Muslims. That’s compared to around 800 people in Guantanamo Bay (and only about 40 remaining there). Guantanamo Bay is completely horrible and should never have happened, but it wasn’t genocide.

Can you point me to the documents describing systemic (EDIT: Systemic, as opposed to a crime committed by a rogue prison guard) torture in those “camps”? Guantanamo is indeed different, because it was only used for people to extract information from - vast majority of “war against terrorism” victims have been simply killed instead.

>systemic (EDIT: Systemic, as opposed to a crime committed by a rogue prison guard) torture

having systemically rogue prison guards (say because they never really get punished and everybody aware about it, and frequently even with tacit approval) is a form of systemic torture. Have been this way in USSR/Russia for example.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#69

Post by Maakuth »

GameOfFrowns wrote: post #54
Maakuth wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it would be helpful if you provided some grounds on why you do not trust this foundation. There are other messages in this discussion showing distrust in the foundation and Dr. Zenz, but none provide background for that.

What would you even consider credible criticism? [0]Zenz is a born-again christian zealot who imagines himself to be on a mission against Satan (or in this case China) and who build his whole career on "uncovering" Chinese atrocities and aligning himself with questionable orgs like the Muslim Brotherhood. In our current economy where attention is currency, he has to come up with ever more outrageous material. Now tha…

This is the sort of background I asked for. Admittedly I've not followed the topic closely, but this is the first time I hear about this sort of connection with Uyghyr activism.

At least in this case the reporting seems to be based on verified information and journalists working independently of Dr. Zenz.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#70

Post by Melting_Harps »

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #59
dr_faustus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.

It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many sources. Also note that it has taken almost a decade to get to this level of awareness and still to this day Israel critics are called anti-semites and worse. Hopefully more widespread awareness and outrage about the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang comes soon. EDIT…

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