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Why America has so few carpenters

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Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#61

Post by kixiQu »

analog31 wrote: post #57
kixiQu wrote: post #16

My parents met when they were both working construction. My mom was a surveyor and a laborer at various times; she helped get my dad into the union (Philly) and he was a carpenter. My mom stopped it to raise me and my sibling; my dad did it until it entirely broke his body. (I would not be writing this as a college-educated adult if he hadn't had a union pension that kicked in on disability.) I know precisely one per…

In addition to the inherent physical nature of the work, another problem is working for small businesses that fly under the radar of OSHA and other regulations. Also, family owned businesses don't have a "normal" career advancement process unless you belong to the family. When people come to work on my house, I've noticed that everybody who is around my age (58) is hobbling and broken.

Oof, the flaky radar of regulatory agencies... I wonder if it's the same in other comparable countries -- not just OSHA, but all DOL enforcement broadly is just such a joke in the US that it seems reasonable to expect almost any random place might be doing better.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#62

Post by davemp »

chillingeffect wrote: post #31

I saw a vid a few months ago abt low pay 4 carpenters... ao i decided to hire one. Oops! Not as low wage as i was led to believe!

Low wage. Not low charge out rate. In my area basically any skill labor is billed at $120/hr and the actual laborers might see $30-40 of that.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#63

Post by rufus_foreman »

wardedVibe wrote: post #14
rdtwo wrote: post #3

Like every other profession with a supposed shortage the pay and work conditions suck. And guess what shortage… It’s like there is a shortage of people willing to pick fruit at 10$ an hour and live in terrible conditions while exposed to harsh chemicals. No shit you need to pay people a whole lot more money

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic economics don't apply to labor too? I'm surprised this article doesn't examine why companies aren't upping their pay.

Same thing with housing.

There is no housing shortage, there are just people who aren't willing to pay the market rate for housing. Up your price that you are willing to pay and you will have housing. If you can't pay the market rate for housing, do not be surprised when you do not have housing.

Basic economics.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#64

Post by davemp »

eftychis wrote: post #18
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #4

If software engineering and carpentry paid the same, I'd be a carpenter.

My great-grandfather and uncle (retired) were carpenters. While carpentry is a great hobby they definitely preferred/liked my professional direction -- at some point lungs, legs, hands, and wood do not like each other.

Well considering the culture on most job sites includes ridiculing people for wearing safety glasses and dust masks, there’s definitely room for improvement.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#65

Post by JackMorgan »

paulpauper wrote: post #26
wardedVibe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic economics don't apply to labor too? I'm surprised this article doesn't examine why companies aren't upping their pay.

they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. to pay ppl enough $ to entice them to do carpentry is not profitable, hence so few of them. I remember climbing a 4,000 ft mountain in a day in the hot sun..you could not pay me enough $ to ever want to do that again, and even if you could, it would never be profitable. That's why things are airlifted.

Haha, very good timing, I just climbed a 4k mountain today in a Virginia heatwave. It was almost 100F real feel in the valley, and if I wasn't doing it for my own satisfaction I'd definitely want a good amount of money for it!

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#66

Post by s1artibartfast »

mason55 wrote: post #48
missedthecue wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would carpentry work have to pay before the demand is satisfied? It is my view that many people don't want to do trades at any reasonable rate. I would imagine most people my age would rather make $60k a year answering emails and doing zoom meetings than $120k going to a jobsite early every morning in any weather all year long.

So then offer improved job conditions. Shorter hours, better safety, extra pay for shitty weather days, etc. The problem is that it takes awhile to train for the job so the labor market won’t be able to react very quickly. By the time we’re adjusting the job offering it’ll be too late.

There is no "too late". Costs will go up and more people will do it or do without

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#68

Post by s1artibartfast »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #63
wardedVibe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic economics don't apply to labor too? I'm surprised this article doesn't examine why companies aren't upping their pay.

Same thing with housing. There is no housing shortage, there are just people who aren't willing to pay the market rate for housing. Up your price that you are willing to pay and you will have housing. If you can't pay the market rate for housing, do not be surprised when you do not have housing. Basic economics.

This ignores regulatory barriers that impact costs.

If it costs 500k to permit and inspect a house, you can absolutely complain

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#69

Post by anamax »

prawn wrote: post #40
anamax wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A majority of construction workers in San Jose, CA are Hispanic, as are the construction companies. Maybe they discriminate against Blacks. Maybe they also discriminate against folks whose ancestors came from a diferent country. (Do Mexicans tend to like Columbians?) That said, if there's discrimination in construction in San Jose, it isn't by whites.

Why would that discount its relevance? It just says that he faced discrimination. And why would a majority of Hispanic-dominant companies mean that the remainder wouldn’t discriminate? Presumably it’s something he raised as a challenge when interviewed.

Did he say that he faced discrimination by whites?

As to your assumption that Hispanics don't discriminate, you haven't spent much time with them. (They aren't as racist as Indians or Chinese, but that's a low bar.)

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#70

Post by ch4s3 »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #63
wardedVibe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic economics don't apply to labor too? I'm surprised this article doesn't examine why companies aren't upping their pay.

Same thing with housing. There is no housing shortage, there are just people who aren't willing to pay the market rate for housing. Up your price that you are willing to pay and you will have housing. If you can't pay the market rate for housing, do not be surprised when you do not have housing. Basic economics.

I would argue that there is a housing shortage in many American cities insofar as there is demand for far more housing than currently exists. The housing would be built y the market if it were legally allowed, or not otherwise strongly disincentivized. As such prices are rising faster than inflation. This tells us that demand outstrips supply.
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