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Computer science is a liberal arts degree

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Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#61

Post by Burner7799 »

eimrine wrote: post #54
spacemanmatt wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like we have a better definition of math than we do of art. Thus it's a lot easier to accurately declare a thing is not math, than it is to accurately declare a thing is not art.

Do you have any better definition of math then "that what mathematicians do"?

Surely that is the best definition possible?

Defining is what humans do.

To ask for a better definition of “defining” seems like a dead end question.

Perhaps asking why humans do what they do yields better answers?

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#62

Post by Mountain_Skies »

nxrabl wrote: post #47

A lot of folks here seem to have a real rose-tinted idea of what CS degrees are actually like. If you took CS more than 10, 15 years ago, you might remember it as a scrappy, fringey degree program, maybe splintered off from Electrical Engineering, a refuge for mathematically-minded nerds to find beauty in the cold algorithmic elegance of computation. That is not what it is anymore, not now that everyone knows you can…

How many programmers are making those decisions on their own and how many are doing what their PM told them do to, at the command of ever higher ups? It's a weird trend to blame all tech outcomes on programmers who often have the least amount of control over what the systems the build are intended to do.

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#63

Post by ukj »

eimrine wrote: post #56
ukj wrote: post #11

Yes it is a liberal arts degree: no humans - no need for computation. Understanding ourselves and our needs is necessary for inventing; improving or sustaining any technology. Yes it is a STEM degree: no rigor - no computation. Understanding how the universe works is necessary in order to exploit matter and convince it to do computations for us. Everything humans do (STEM included) is for humans; and by humans. This…

> no humans - no need for computation. I would disagree with this statement. I have a pet AI program which can get some work done and gain some cryptocurrencies for that and pay for its hosting for keep doing that work. I am sure the AI will overlive all the humans and it really needs some computations for living.

I disagree with your disagreement.

Why do humans need/invent computation, hosting, cryptocurrencies and AI?

I can’t fathom any data center remaining online for more than a few weeks/months if all humans keeping it running magically disappeared.

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#64

Post by eimrine »

ukj wrote: post #60
eimrine wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally disagree. Mathematics is not a science at all because there is no any possible experiments in the Math fields. And remember what David Hilbert has told about one of his students who decided to go into arts instead of keep learning Math with him. He told "he did not have enough imagination to become a mathematician".

In the pyramid of human knowledge physics (a science, according to you) rests on top of mathematics (not a science, according to you). We had mathematics long before we had physics. So it is pretty obvious that physic is founded upon a liberal art - mathematics.

> We had mathematics long before we had physics.

I disagree. People haven't had a Mathematics before Pythagoras. All Mathematics people had at that moment was that 1 golden coin + 1 golden coin = 2 golden coins or one copper knife. But trading is not mathematics if not talking about modern things like HFT with broad using of probability theory (and we obviously are talking about ancient times).

Physics is understandable even with way more simple (and way more ancient) species then humans. For example, an ape can take a stick and use more heavy end to make a more powerful hit. Birds seems to understand physics quite well - starting from setting wings while flying and ending to general intelligence of crows.

And BTW why are you concerned that in the pyramid of knowledge (Biology is a science > Chemistry is a science > Physics is a science > Mathematics is a language) there are three sciences and one a non-science?

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#65

Post by eimrine »

Burner7799 wrote: post #61
eimrine wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any better definition of math then "that what mathematicians do"?

Surely that is the best definition possible? Defining is what humans do. To ask for a better definition of “defining” seems like a dead end question. Perhaps asking why humans do what they do yields better answers?

> Surely that is the best definition possible?

Obviously the best one which has appeared in this topic.

> Defining is what humans do.

Some computer programs can do defining also, so I do not recommend you to go to some fields of an absurd.

> Perhaps asking why humans do what they do yields better answers?

I think the answer will be "because they can", but I have asked HN just. Let's see, what answers will this question yield? [1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31457736

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#66

Post by lthornberry »

psyc wrote: post #3

Clickbait. Article says it should be. To which I say: the fuck it should. Is a law degree a liberal arts degree? If universities decide CS needs to include some instruction in the human side, they can offer those classes without reclassifying CS as some bullshit.

In the US, law is a graduate degree. A significant majority of law school students already have a liberal arts degree. This is an entirely different case.

On the other point, offering CS degrees as liberal arts degrees wouldn't meant "reclassifying CS as some bullshit" (or, indeed, reclassifying CS at all). There are many fields where some colleges already choose to offer the major as a B.A. while others offer it as a B.S. It's not a difference in the field, it's a difference in what requirements a college implements for getting a degree in the field. In other words, exactly what you suggested should happen.

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#67

Post by eimrine »

ukj wrote: post #63
eimrine wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no humans - no need for computation. I would disagree with this statement. I have a pet AI program which can get some work done and gain some cryptocurrencies for that and pay for its hosting for keep doing that work. I am sure the AI will overlive all the humans and it really needs some computations for living.

I disagree with your disagreement. Why do humans need/invent computation, hosting, cryptocurrencies and AI? I can’t fathom any data center remaining online for more than a few weeks/months if all humans keeping it running magically disappeared.

> Why do humans need/invent computation, hosting, cryptocurrencies and AI?

Because they use to have some spare time?

> I can’t fathom any data center remaining online for more than a few weeks/months if all humans keeping it running magically disappeared.

That few weeks my pet AI will be refusing your statement that no human means no need for computations.

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#68

Post by lthornberry »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #17

Application development is a blended skill and computer science is not the only discipline involved. CS is a mathematical science, not a liberal arts topic. This author is way off base.

"Liberal arts" is not a synonym for "humanities." I am a college professor; the majority of students at all the schools I've been affiliated get a liberal arts degree. This includes math majors, physics majors, etc. And even the historians and philosophers are generally required to take math and science courses as part of their liberal arts degrees.

"Liberal arts" refers to a tradition of education across the major disciplines. It is distinguished precisely by the fact that it includes both the sciences and the humanities.

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#69

Post by ukj »

eimrine wrote: post #67
ukj wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your disagreement. Why do humans need/invent computation, hosting, cryptocurrencies and AI? I can’t fathom any data center remaining online for more than a few weeks/months if all humans keeping it running magically disappeared.

> Why do humans need/invent computation, hosting, cryptocurrencies and AI? Because they use to have some spare time? > I can’t fathom any data center remaining online for more than a few weeks/months if all humans keeping it running magically disappeared. That few weeks my pet AI will be refusing your statement that no human means no need for computations.

Then step aside and take a vow of silence.

Let me speak with your AI. Let it refute me by telling me about it’s needs.

Queue excuses…

Re: Computer science is a liberal arts degree

#70

Post by ukj »

eimrine wrote: post #64
ukj wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the pyramid of human knowledge physics (a science, according to you) rests on top of mathematics (not a science, according to you). We had mathematics long before we had physics. So it is pretty obvious that physic is founded upon a liberal art - mathematics.

> We had mathematics long before we had physics. I disagree. People haven't had a Mathematics before Pythagoras. All Mathematics people had at that moment was that 1 golden coin + 1 golden coin = 2 golden coins or one copper knife. But trading is not mathematics if not talking about modern things like HFT with broad using of probability theory (and we obviously are talking about ancient times). Physics is understanda…

Mathematics is a language, but then why are you saying there was no Mathematics before Pythagoras? Obviously Pythagoras didn’t invent language! Long before Pythagoras people had been using language for doing and expressing computation.

Pāṇini did it. The Babylonians did it. It then took us a few thousand years to mechanize that knowledge and invent computers as we know them.

As for physics being “understandable” - I think you are conflating the ability to exploit nature with the ability to understand it.

Physics isn’t something “out there”. Available to birds and apes. It it is the body of knowledge (texts, ideas, concepts, formulas, narratives) instrumental to humans navigating nature.

There would be no physics without humans inventing it just like there would be no language without humans inventing it.

I am not at all concerned about the contents; or the structure of the pyramid. I am simply expressing a fact about the pyramid. That which people call science is not founded upon science. It is founded upon the liberal arts, humanities and social constructs (logic, philosophy, mathematics, computation, language) - the pyramid is founded upon human invention.

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