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Ten years of trying to meditate

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Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#61

Post by stryan »

Hasu wrote: post #32
bowsamic wrote: post #9

My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, c…

I've been noticing an increasing trend of people saying things like this, and I don't get it. Meditation has many forms and traditions, within and without Buddhism. Which ones are "safe" and which ones aren't? Is using Headspace twice a week enough to be dangerous, or is there some lower bound where meditation practice without Buddhist beliefs switches from harmless to dangerous? And are Hindu or Christian meditation…

> And are Hindu or Christian meditation practices dangerous, or just the secular stuff? What precisely is the nature of this danger?

I don't think the argument is usually "meditation without Buddhism is dangerous" but rather "meditation techniques taken from their context can be dangerous". Regular mindfulness or insight meditation can cause shifts in mental state that a person isn't used to and they may not have the tools required to deal with it in a healthy manner.

It's like the mental equivalent of a normal person suddenly starting the same workout routine as an professional athlete, or even just an experienced weightlifter. They might be able to do the exercises, but they don't have the context provided by having a coach/being in the sport/etc to provide them with tools like "how to fall properly" or "knowing a torn muscle versus a normal sprain". That doesn't mean that doing the exercises in general are bad or that you need to do sport foo in order to exercise.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#63

Post by titanomachy »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #45
Hasu wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been noticing an increasing trend of people saying things like this, and I don't get it. Meditation has many forms and traditions, within and without Buddhism. Which ones are "safe" and which ones aren't? Is using Headspace twice a week enough to be dangerous, or is there some lower bound where meditation practice without Buddhist beliefs switches from harmless to dangerous? And are Hindu or Christian meditation…

>That's an extreme claim that requires a lot of evidence. For what it's worth, I Don't think it's an extreme claim at all. The potential for ill-effects from more extreme efforts in Meditation is starting to be documented by western scientists. A lot of adverse outcomes aren't only possible, but actually quite common. I personally had ZERO prior mental health issues, but after 3-4 months of meditating 30-90 minutes e…

I think this stuff is actually pretty typical for folks who progress to a certain stage. I experienced it as well, if that makes you feel any better.

The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject (from the admittedly controversial author Daniel Ingram):

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight...

Here's a more traditional buddhist description of the same thing:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress....

I think a very small fraction of people actually meditate enough to get to that point. Meditating 90 minutes a day (plus the constant mindfulness practice) is pretty extreme by most people's standards (at least in US secular culture).

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#64

Post by feanaro »

bowsamic wrote: post #17
bitcurious wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, be careful - meditation in the context of Buddhism is a marketing funnel backed by 2500 years of experience. It systematically breaks down your value system and replaces it with one that puts Buddhist practice at the core. So if you’re not looking for a religious awakening don’t take any of their advice too seriously.

Yes, it will break down your values. Unfortunately if you have the taste of bodhicitta: the mind that wants to awaken and liberate yourself and others from suffering, then you will mostly be forced to do it. I don’t recommend meditation or Buddhism for all, it will change your life in many ways that you will consider bad from your current point of view. Less motivation for tackling stressful tasks, less romantic atta…

What do you mean exactly by "increased neurosis"? How do you define neurosis here?

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#65

Post by taeric »

bowsamic wrote: post #54
taeric wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this true of all frames? I feel that I could claim the same for science and religion as things, as well. Note that I'm fine pushing for caution on folks wanting to take up any practice. This would go as well for folks that think a running practice will help them. Maybe. At best.

I think we should treat it like a psychedelic treatment

In what way?

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#66

Post by Hasu »

bowsamic wrote: post #49
Hasu wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been noticing an increasing trend of people saying things like this, and I don't get it. Meditation has many forms and traditions, within and without Buddhism. Which ones are "safe" and which ones aren't? Is using Headspace twice a week enough to be dangerous, or is there some lower bound where meditation practice without Buddhist beliefs switches from harmless to dangerous? And are Hindu or Christian meditation…

I would say it’s an increasing trend because people who are more invested in the traditions have “had enough” of so called “mcmindfulness” or dangerous approaches

If what you say is true, then it should be trivially easy to find an app that promotes these dangerous practices, find their daily active users, then check the reviews and find a high percentage (>10%) of negative reviews saying something like, "1/5, cannot recommend, after using this app every day for three months, I'm now experiencing horrible mental health issues".

There are plenty of apps out there with millions of daily active users. What percentage of those users do you expect to suffer negative mental health side effects? Where is the evidence that they exist at all?

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#68

Post by bowsamic »

titanomachy wrote: post #63
Enginerrrd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's an extreme claim that requires a lot of evidence. For what it's worth, I Don't think it's an extreme claim at all. The potential for ill-effects from more extreme efforts in Meditation is starting to be documented by western scientists. A lot of adverse outcomes aren't only possible, but actually quite common. I personally had ZERO prior mental health issues, but after 3-4 months of meditating 30-90 minutes e…

I think this stuff is actually pretty typical for folks who progress to a certain stage. I experienced it as well, if that makes you feel any better. The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject (from the admittedly controversial author Daniel Ingram): https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table…

> The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject:

This and linking MCTB (of all things) are the exact dangerous taking out of context I’m warning against. Daniel Ingram is a terrible resource, he should not be recommended

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#69

Post by feanaro »

rippeltippel wrote: post #34
runlaszlorun wrote: post #4

Great piece! I’ve had a rambling zen practice for over 20 years and little of it has been the tranquil, peaceful experience that people imply when they colloquially call something ‘zen’. But totally worth it. And as you rightly pointed out, the act of just noticing can be done in motion as well as at rest. Thx for sharing… Btw, I’m a big fan of Shinzen Young who has a secular/scientific(-ish) approach that combines v…

Thank you for mentioning Shinzen Young, I didn't know about him and just checked his website. It looks like there's some crossover with Sam Harris' "Waking Up" [1], do you happen to know how they compare? [1] https://www.wakingup.com/

Another resource that might appeal to the HN type is The Mind Illuminated, by John Yates (a.k.a. Culadasa).

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#70

Post by titanomachy »

bowsamic wrote: post #56
titanomachy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it, I personally experienced something like a psychotic episode while on a meditation retreat. Also a panic attack, a few hours before that. No prior history of panic attacks or psychosis. I actually think that some of the benefits of meditation are adjacent to psychosis, in a way: as you get closer to the "insight" that is the intended result of Buddhist meditation, you are also flirting with losing your g…

Yes really the whole point of it is to let go of your grip on reality

Yeah, I'm not sure what the difference is between the people who come away from the experienced more "enlightened" vs just more insane.

It kind of feels like an all-or-nothing thing: once you start to "see through the illusion of self", you have to follow that through to its logical conclusion or you'll be stuck living with intense cognitive dissonance.

I don't generally like to talk about this stuff too much because it sounds absolutely nuts to people who haven't experienced it.

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