Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#61

Post by saddist0 » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

I don't get the fuss about such posts. At the end of the day, it boils down to your personal choices. You love to remote work, find a job with a flexible work policy. You don't, well, here are another companies you would love to work for.

Ultimately, markets (including job market) is all about equilibrium. Either companies are going to increase the salary to come back [or reduce if you are staying back at home].

The thing which matters the most is picking up the best option for yourself. [and don't _always_ wait for your company to catch up]

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#62

Post by willis936 » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

humanistbot wrote: post #47

Is there anything HNers feel more passionately about than remote work?

Energy market speculation.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#63

Post by tomohawk » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

qbasic_forever wrote: post #30

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #28

Good for him. These companies touting their solutions for creating a more connected world can't have it both ways. Apple was able to ship the M1 and roll out new iterations of many other offerings since the pandemic hit. They're just fine. Apple didn't collapse since the pandemic hit, and the flexibility offered by remote work is far more valuable to lots of people than the loss of in-person collaboration opportuniti…

> We deserve to have input into how we work best and if that means walking away from companies run by egomaniacs that need to see butts in seats, then so be it. The logical conclusion of this line of thinking is to organize your coworkers. You have much more bargaining power about your work conditions as an organized union. The history of unionization stems primarily from workers demanding safe working environments.

Having seen how several family members fared in union jobs (several different unions), I swore I'd never belong to a union or work any job that required me to be part of one.

They all had such an adversarial relationship with work. It's always us against them mentality. They could never see anyone in management as a human. I can't imagine living like that.

As far as I can tell, the unions didn't ever solve any of their biggest gripes, took money out of their paychecks for lots of non-work related political activities, and didn't come through when they really needed to on things like pensions or healthcare.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#64

Post by zasdffaa » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:13 PM UTC

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #38

Here’s to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes… the ones who see things differently — they’re not fond of rules… You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can’t do is ignore them because they change things… they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the on…

I'm one of those misfits/troublemakers/etc. I've done my life mostly on my terms, and I've had it really tough. Conformists generally get it much easier. I'm all for more independent thought and fuck-you-ness but never forget that for most people that comes at a high price, so take off the rose-tinted specs.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#65

Post by thr0wawayf00 » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #46

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #38

Here’s to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes… the ones who see things differently — they’re not fond of rules… You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can’t do is ignore them because they change things… they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the on…

You have to wear pajamas to live by those words! Btw that quote is describing the potential customers of Apple, not employees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMBhDv4sik

> Btw that quote is describing the potential customers of Apple, not employees

Why does that matter? Does Apple not want the most talented, world-changing people working on their products? If your marketing sounds good for customers but dumb for employees, particularly in knowledge-driven work, then maybe your marketing is just hypocritical?

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#66

Post by passivate » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #52

I left Apple for the same reason. Director level folks get the headlines, but there are a lot of lower level folks doing the same thing.

How many is a lot?

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#67

Post by holografix » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

sabellito wrote: post #40

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #28

Good for him. These companies touting their solutions for creating a more connected world can't have it both ways. Apple was able to ship the M1 and roll out new iterations of many other offerings since the pandemic hit. They're just fine. Apple didn't collapse since the pandemic hit, and the flexibility offered by remote work is far more valuable to lots of people than the loss of in-person collaboration opportuniti…

I have a strong dislike for remote work and will only work at companies with offices where people are expected to go to the vast majority of days. I absolutely understand that it's the opposite for some people.

Same here. I currently work at a very prestigious tech company and I’m surprised by how boring it actually is.

There’s hardly anyone around in the office and frankly I couldn’t care less about the free stuff. They pay me enough that I can go out and buy my own snacks.

What I want is a team to learn from and grow. Not some teachers pets that sit behind zoom calls making sure they know exactly what’s “on the test” so they make themselves look better.

I’ll never work somewhere 100% remote or where employees don’t have an expectation of at least 3 days in the office.

Mind you, being able to spend a day a week at home vs full week in the office is quite nice.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#68

Post by williamsmj » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

jjj123 wrote: post #57

williamsmj wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you say, but Goodfellow was a manager. Managers can’t join unions in the United States.

What do you mean by that? My manager at my last job was in a union. There was, however, a separate union for managers and one for ICs.

The NLRA says "Nothing herein shall prohibit any individual employed as a supervisor from becoming or remaining a member of a labor organization, but no employer subject to this Act [subchapter] shall be compelled to deem individuals defined herein as supervisors as employees for the purpose of any law, either national or local, relating to collective bargaining."

...which effectively states that if a supervisor joins a union it's a no-op. The employer is not required to acknowledge their membership. In practice, unions specifically exclude managers for a bunch of obvious reasons related to their ability to bargain effectively on behalf of their members.

Your manager likely joined a union-ish entity open to supervisors. IIUC such entities are not protected by the NLRA and as such have few of the legal powers and protections that make a union a union. They’re basically affinity groups.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#69

Post by ytdytvhxgydvhh » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #51

sabellito wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a strong dislike for remote work and will only work at companies with offices where people are expected to go to the vast majority of days. I absolutely understand that it's the opposite for some people.

I feel the same. I like working from an office and I like informal interactions with colleagues — from chatting over coffee to peeking around and seeing who is free to whiteboard a problem.

Same here. Except I also hate wasting time on commuting, not having the flexibility to take care of a home-related task in the middle of the day, etc. So the experiment to find a balance has begun…

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#70

Post by ineedasername » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

I'm trying to hire for a position right now and it has dragged on for months for two reasons:

1) WFH is now limited to 1 day per week, and a 3 month probationary period where new hires don't even get that.

2) Salary. It's still a job seeker's market and my workplace is not keeping pace. It's spec'ed for 3 years of experience but salary is about the median for a new graduate w/o professional experience. I'm happy to train someone but if I rework the job class to allow for new grads then HR will lower the starting salary. So, I'm hoping to find someone who's a new grad but had a part time job or internship or any other non-coursework experience the could be even the least bit argued as adding up to the required experience. (the position is basically a data wrangler / sql jockey / light analysis position, but it directly supports the main revenue-generating operations of the organization so there is real $$$ lost by having this position empty. ::Grrrrr:: end rant.)