Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

talmudology.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 141 posts

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#61

Post by unmole »

roenxi wrote: post #56
wheels wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if I'm the only one reading that finds the term "gentile" as moderately offensive. It seems to map the world into Jewish ontology of "God's chosen people", and other. "Non-Jew" feels less abrasive since it only assumes the (obvious) existence of Judaism. I find Judaism super interesting historically (and have some Jewish ancestory and have spent a couple months in Israel), but still the term "gentile" in a m…

"Gentile" derives from Latin gentilis, which itself derives from the Latin gens, meaning clan or tribe. [0] I don't think you are in a position to get offended on this one. Doesn't seem to even be a Hebrew word. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile#Etymology

And negro is derived from the Spanish word for black, nothing offensive. It's almost as if intent and context matters more than etymology.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#62

Post by narag »

ALittleLight wrote: post #15
narag wrote: post #4

Actually, some real cases are as weird as the hypothetical ones. A couple comes to mind: a guy rents a house in the middle of nowhere with the condition that he won't play the grand piano that's in the middle of the living room. And another one, a guy suicides after his doctor diagnoses him with a terminal cancer. In case you didn't guess: the first guy played the piano and the doctor was having an affair with his pa…

For the piano - I think it's perfectly reasonable to end the lease if the tenant violates the terms of the agreement. The owner may want the piano to remain undisturbed for sentimental reasons, personal belief, or playing the piano might degrade it. The question of how the owner knows the piano was played may be a separate wrong doing (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on th…

The doctor was found guilty of murder, because he had overwhelming control of the situation. No idea what "felony murder rule" is but if it's in the anglo-saxon tradition, I doubt it's applicable.

I can't remember what happened with the piano. IIRC, both cases happened in Germany and the piano one was long ago so cameras and mics were not a possibility then. Anyway the legal foundation in play there was if there's somehow a legitimate interest in the clause, not just a whim.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#63

Post by mensetmanusman »

wheels wrote: post #37
TchoBeer wrote: post #2

Whenever I see something about the Talmud in gentile-dominated spaces I tense up a bit. I'm not orthodox anymore, but I was orthodox for the first 20-odd years of my life so I'm in the unique position of being around a lot of gentiles but knowing a lot about Judaism and Jewish law. This article is pretty ok, but its format is probably confusing for a gentile audience. For reference: a large number of Jews do "daf yom…

I wonder if I'm the only one reading that finds the term "gentile" as moderately offensive. It seems to map the world into Jewish ontology of "God's chosen people", and other. "Non-Jew" feels less abrasive since it only assumes the (obvious) existence of Judaism. I find Judaism super interesting historically (and have some Jewish ancestory and have spent a couple months in Israel), but still the term "gentile" in a m…

What you get offended by is an excellent source of introspection.

I have worked with teens of the wealthy elite who are offended if one asks them to do chores (some call it abuse).

Our current culture glorifies victimhood, so people are more attuned to being offended.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#64

Post by bradrn »

AaronFriel wrote: post #60

Whenever one finds an absurd "rule", there is, generally, a reason. You don't put up a sign that says "Don't stick utensils in electrical sockets" until someone's done it or thought about it. And if the rule is "don't juggle forks while riding a unicycle around electrical outlets", it's usually because someone lied about what happened. > Rabba said: One who fell from a roof and was inserted into a woman due to the fo…

> Whenever one finds an absurd "rule", there is, generally, a reason [that it was proposed].

‘Generally’, but not always! Especially in the Talmud. As explained in the article, the Talmud has a strong tradition of using hypotheticals throughout to clarify edge cases in the laws. And not just here: I was taught a few pages of Talmud once (from Bava Metzia, as I recall), and most of the cases I learnt about were obvious hypotheticals aimed at systematically exploring each and every legal possibility. In this particular instance, absolutely everyone, from modern-day readers to Rabba when he imagined such a case, knows that the described situation would be utterly implausible; anyone who claimed this happened in real life would be obviously lying. But it is useful in elucidating the law to figure out the consequences if it actually had happened in reality.

EDIT: Perhaps [0] (Bava Metzia p21a) is a better example of what I mean. The text systematically describes various situations where scattered kernels are dispersed across a large area: a half-kav scattered over 2×4 cubits, one kav over 4×4 cubits, two kavs over 8×4 cubits, and so on, until all the possibilities are exhasted. None of these are necessarily real cases which have occurred in real life — they’re just enumerating the possibilities to iron out all the edge cases. The hypothetical you quoted accomplishes the same task, albeit less obviously.

[0] https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.21a.14?ven=William_David...

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#66

Post by ALittleLight »

narag wrote: post #62
ALittleLight wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the piano - I think it's perfectly reasonable to end the lease if the tenant violates the terms of the agreement. The owner may want the piano to remain undisturbed for sentimental reasons, personal belief, or playing the piano might degrade it. The question of how the owner knows the piano was played may be a separate wrong doing (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on th…

The doctor was found guilty of murder, because he had overwhelming control of the situation. No idea what "felony murder rule" is but if it's in the anglo-saxon tradition, I doubt it's applicable. I can't remember what happened with the piano. IIRC, both cases happened in Germany and the piano one was long ago so cameras and mics were not a possibility then. Anyway the legal foundation in play there was if there's so…

The felony murder rule is, if you commit a felony, and a person dies as a result of your crime, then you are guilty of murder. The classic example is the getaway driver in a bank robbery. If the bank robbers go in and shoot the security guard, a clerk or two, and a customer, and all you do as the getaway driver is drive the robbers away from the crime, you will still go to jail for murder even though you had nothing to do with pulling any triggers and may not have expected or wanted anyone to die. A less intuitive consequence of this is, if you are a bank robber, and the security guard shoots your fellow robber, and the other robber dies, then you are also guilty of murder because your felony (robbing the bank) led to the death of the other robber.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#67

Post by TchoBeer »

wheels wrote: post #37
TchoBeer wrote: post #2

Whenever I see something about the Talmud in gentile-dominated spaces I tense up a bit. I'm not orthodox anymore, but I was orthodox for the first 20-odd years of my life so I'm in the unique position of being around a lot of gentiles but knowing a lot about Judaism and Jewish law. This article is pretty ok, but its format is probably confusing for a gentile audience. For reference: a large number of Jews do "daf yom…

I wonder if I'm the only one reading that finds the term "gentile" as moderately offensive. It seems to map the world into Jewish ontology of "God's chosen people", and other. "Non-Jew" feels less abrasive since it only assumes the (obvious) existence of Judaism. I find Judaism super interesting historically (and have some Jewish ancestory and have spent a couple months in Israel), but still the term "gentile" in a m…

I didn't realize it had that connotation for some people, I'll be more careful about that in the future.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#68

Post by TchoBeer »

akyu wrote: post #6
TchoBeer wrote: post #2

Whenever I see something about the Talmud in gentile-dominated spaces I tense up a bit. I'm not orthodox anymore, but I was orthodox for the first 20-odd years of my life so I'm in the unique position of being around a lot of gentiles but knowing a lot about Judaism and Jewish law. This article is pretty ok, but its format is probably confusing for a gentile audience. For reference: a large number of Jews do "daf yom…

Why does it make you tense up?

There's a lot of prejudgements based off of very little knowledge that goes on. I remember a comment section in a YouTube video about the eruv in New York where all the comments were either like "interesting do you know [innocent question]" and all the replies would be like "not a Jew but [patently wrong information]" or else were just pointing at the othered minority and their silly ways. I'm not Orthodox anymore, but my otherness from the Orthodox community is different from someone who didn't grow up in it and judges it or its teachings or trappings nonetheless.

In this case, the comments are pretty neutral to positive, but I was rather worried there would be a lot of "Jews study this silly ancient text full of nonsense" going about.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#69

Post by roenxi »

unmole wrote: post #61
roenxi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gentile" derives from Latin gentilis, which itself derives from the Latin gens, meaning clan or tribe. [0] I don't think you are in a position to get offended on this one. Doesn't seem to even be a Hebrew word. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile#Etymology

And negro is derived from the Spanish word for black, nothing offensive. It's almost as if intent and context matters more than etymology.

What changes if the Jews call people non-Jews v. gentiles? The context and intent is identical. Unless we just want to be offended by existance of Jews and the idea of a Jew/non-Jew divide existing.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#70

Post by notsureaboutpg »

AaronFriel wrote: post #60

Whenever one finds an absurd "rule", there is, generally, a reason. You don't put up a sign that says "Don't stick utensils in electrical sockets" until someone's done it or thought about it. And if the rule is "don't juggle forks while riding a unicycle around electrical outlets", it's usually because someone lied about what happened. > Rabba said: One who fell from a roof and was inserted into a woman due to the fo…

No post body was provided.
Post reply on HN