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Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

arxiv.org

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Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#61

Post by bradleybuda »

yunohn wrote: post #52
fddhjjj wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part of the paper gives you the impression they imply voice assistants are listening to everything? I don’t get that. The discussion in the paper is nuanced on that point and does not make that claim as far as I read it. Section 2.2 (page 2): > The content of users’ speech can reveal sensitive information (e.g., private conversations) and the voice signals can be processed to infer potentially sensitive informat…

Alexa uses the data we give to it by speaking and performing actions via downloaded skills - is very similar to all ad platforms, conveying user intent into ad profiles. Saying “process voice for ads” has subtle connotations in the current landscape of privacy discussions.

For example, this sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31178067

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#62

Post by robin_reala »

maccard wrote: post #22
navanchauhan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mycroft? [0] https://mycroft.ai

That falls at the first hurdle - the page you link to says shipping September 2022.

Mycroft have been shipping assistants since 2016: https://mycroft.ai/blog/making-a-mycroft/

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#63

Post by lonelyasacloud »

manesioz wrote: post #51

Honestly I can't see why anyone has these smart speakers anyways. Best case scenario is what, saving a minute by not typing in a Google query or phone number? Doesn't seem like a sufficient benefit when you consider the downside -- a device listening to your conversations and selling that data to ad agencies.

Main one for us is home automation - being able to turn on/off lights, heating, hot water etc is very convenient, saves time [1], money and improves home security.

Can't speak for G's offering, but currently Rest of Ear of Sauron Alexa and chipper, but particularly thick, Siri either don't work very well or fall into the easy to live without novelty category for us.

[1] Particularly around Xmas, lots of switchs which are almost always buried somewhere behind the tree ...

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#64

Post by mort96 »

almost wrote: post #21
mort96 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of people who read your comment (including me) won't have read the paper. You should cite the parts of the paper which made you come to the conclusion that they really only showed that ads are shown based on what you install, not based on what you say otherwise.

Reading the introduction section should be enough. It’s pretty clear that they’re talking about Amazon targeting ads based on your interactions with the Alexa and not, as the title here implies, based on just listening in to other things you say. The paper does talk about “voice data” which I think is a bit misleading. “Voice data” to me would imply an analysis of the sounds your voice makes directly for ad targeting…

From the introduction, it seems like their main concern is that "smart speakers record audio from their environment and potentially share this data with other parties over the Internet—even when they should not". They provide two examples of how that happens:

1. "Smart speaker vendors or third-parties may infer users’ sensitive physical (e.g., age, health) and psychological (e.g., mood, confidence) traits from their voice."

2. "The set of questions and commands issued to a smart speaker can reveal sensitive information about users’ states of mind, interests, and concerns."

They also mention that "smart speaker platforms host malicious third-party apps", and "record users’ private conversations without their knowledge", but that's mentioned as examples of prior research and thus seems to serve more as background than something this paper is trying to prove.

Point 2 is the one you're focusing on, and yeah, that's not surprising. You'd expect Amazon to build a profile on you based on the stuff you ask Echo to do (though the ethics of this certainly warrants discussion).

Point 1 would be the surprising thing, that smart speakers infer information about people from their voice, rather than from the commands themselves.

Their methodology seems to be to create multiple personas and compare the sorts of ads they get. In order to prove that information is inferred from traits of the voice rather than the words in the commands, they would need two personas which are identical in which commands they send but with different voices (female vs male voice, healthy vs smoker voice, something like that). From skimming section 3, it doesn't seem like they did that, so I'm forced to agree that the thing they prove in this paper (if their statistical methods are valid) is that Amazon builds an advertisement profile based on your interests as expressed in terms of which commands you're sending the device.

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#65

Post by zenithd »

doubtfuluser wrote: post #31

I have the feeling, that the paper is flawed and missing an important experiment. All their results seem to rely on skills being used. There is indeed a need then for Amazon to prevent user tracking in skills (like for example Apple does and requires consent by the user). But to come to the conclusion that Amazon shares the data with advertisers I would have expected an experiment with eliminating skills as a reason…

No post body was provided.

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#66

Post by zenithd »

fddhjjj wrote: post #50
yunohn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, they are trying to imply the common trope of “voice assistants are listening to everything we say all day for ads”, whereas their test methodology was to actively use the top skills for those interests and perform actions. While I don’t like the sharing of such data for ads, it’s a far cry from Alexa processing voice in the background with zero interaction.

What part of the paper gives you the impression they imply voice assistants are listening to everything? I don’t get that. The discussion in the paper is nuanced on that point and does not make that claim as far as I read it. Section 2.2 (page 2): > The content of users’ speech can reveal sensitive information (e.g., private conversations) and the voice signals can be processed to infer potentially sensitive informat…

No post body was provided.

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#67

Post by jasonlotito »

fddhjjj wrote: post #50
yunohn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, they are trying to imply the common trope of “voice assistants are listening to everything we say all day for ads”, whereas their test methodology was to actively use the top skills for those interests and perform actions. While I don’t like the sharing of such data for ads, it’s a far cry from Alexa processing voice in the background with zero interaction.

What part of the paper gives you the impression they imply voice assistants are listening to everything? I don’t get that. The discussion in the paper is nuanced on that point and does not make that claim as far as I read it. Section 2.2 (page 2): > The content of users’ speech can reveal sensitive information (e.g., private conversations) and the voice signals can be processed to infer potentially sensitive informat…

> What part of the paper gives you the impression they imply voice assistants are listening to everything?

For me, it's this: "Your Echos are Heard"

So, the opening salvo. That's what gives me the impression they imply voice assistances are listening to everything.

I don't refer to voice commands or normal interaction as "echos" so the user of the word "echos" here implies something nefarious. Sure, it's the name of the product, but for me, it reads like something more.

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#68

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

garciasn wrote: post #53
manesioz wrote: post #51

Honestly I can't see why anyone has these smart speakers anyways. Best case scenario is what, saving a minute by not typing in a Google query or phone number? Doesn't seem like a sufficient benefit when you consider the downside -- a device listening to your conversations and selling that data to ad agencies.

Ad agencies hearing that I want to know the weather, dad jokes, recipes, turn on and off my lights, and to listen to smooth jazz is literally the least of my problems when it comes to data being shared/sold. Just like anything, there’s a trade off and, for the case of convenience, I’m willing to make the trade off between convenience of talking to a device to do tasks for me and having an ad agency learn what music I…

I upvoted specifically, because this is effectively how a lot of users see this feature ( admittedly based on anecdata ). I might even expand on it. Most users do not even see a trade-off. Most see pure benefit.

But.. there is hope as jokes along the lines 'Wiretap, what is the time?' seem to have become more common.

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#69

Post by titzer »

As other commenters in the thread have pointed out, this might not be as quite a smoking gun as it would appear.

However, I still feel weird with these devices in the room. I have decided I am not going to trust them, I won't ever trust them, and I'm blaming them until they show us the code.

I know I'm a doomer and a fatalist, but holy crap we are sleep-walking into dystopia. Your average HNer might be a little more attuned to the possibilities for abuse here, but the billions of clueless customers and hundreds of billions of dollars to be made will just keep tempting these behemoths further over the line and renormalize all of society around pervasive surveillance capitalism.

The entire psychological context of life has changed, and I'm not super OK with it, TBH.

Re: Statistical Analysis shows Echos process voice to serve ads

#70

Post by zie »

z3c0 wrote: post #32
malf wrote: post #7

Paper seems to actually show things like “If you install the Fitness skill, Amazon shows you fitness ads”, but that’s less sexy, I guess.

I think what it's actually showing (per Section 6.1) is that Amazon is using wishy-washy language to give the impression that they are not using voice recordings to build ad profiles on users[1]. They instead claim that it's for "personalized experiences" and "building inclusiveness". This adorable little infographic on "the journey of a voice request" conveniently leaves out that it gets used for advertisement[2]. T…

> They have also made public statements that outright state that voice data doesn't get used for ad-targeting[3]

“not use customers’ voice recordings for targeted advertising.”

I guess it depends on how one reads that quote. A trusting sort could read that to mean, we don't use anything we learn from voice recordings for targeted advertising.

A skeptic might read that quote and determine:

Well we generate metadata from the recording, and we then use the metedata for targeted advertising, but we don't use the actual recording for advertising.

Which makes sense, if I was to implement something like this, I wouldn't use the actual recording, I'd process the recording(which I have to do anyway to answer the request) and if I happen to save some useful for advertising data along the way, well, more $$'s for me!

Which one is true? I guess it mostly depends on how hungry Amazon is to make a buck and what they think they can get away with. As a privacy snob, I'd prefer the trusting version to be true.

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