Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#61

Post by ncmncm » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 4:40 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #47

paulryanrogers wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still strikes me as cowardly since the program was/is grossly unconstitutional. And I think Snowden has proven the constitution can survive the disclosure that the government had an illegal, poorly overseen dragnet. Clapper is ultimately responsible for what is considered classified. Feels like circular logic to say he was forced to lie to the public and non-committee representatives about things he had authority to…

It’s fair to criticize the whole US intelligence establishment (and their congressional overseers, and every president of both parties for the past 40+ years) without thinking that Clapper should be personally criminally liable for following standard practice here. * * * While we are talking about cowardly though, why has Edward Snowden, president of the Freedom of the Press Foundation (!), neither said anything publ…

What do you imagine Snowden is supposed to do? He has exactly zero control over any single detail of any of it. He is under the thumb of a murderous thug. Not speaking up says more than he ever could aloud.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#62

Post by anothernewdude » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 4:42 AM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #7

Shouldn't the title be "Espionage or Whistleblowing?" Journalism would just be reporting on the events. For example, Daniel Ellsberg, leaking Pentagon Papers - basically everyone now agrees that was legitimate whistleblowing as it proved leading government figures were lying through their teeth to the American public about the reality on the ground in Vietnam. In contrast, Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen were CIA and…

As far as I understand it, Snowden wasn't trying to leak any program in particular, he just copied as much material as he could.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#63

Post by ncmncm » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 4:45 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #38

V_Terranova_Jr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would do the charging? The executive branch for whom it was most convenient for him to ? The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic? You need a critical mass to pursue any form of actual accountability - lone brave senators or congresspersons won't have enough momentum to get past the activation energy barrier. Prio…

"The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic?" I've never gotten the impression that Americans have very much love for the intelligence community. The military, yes, the intelligence community, no. Congress has slapped the intelligence committee before (in the aftermath of the Church Committee[1]). It's just that post-9/…

Nobody lost their job, or suffered any particular inconvenience over anything the Church Committee did. They all continued on to retirement unbothered, with full pensions, then mostly cycled quietly into military contractors' management at a big markup, billed to us.

The COINTELPRO revelations were promoted as ending the program, but there is no public evidence anything changed. The stories about attempts at spying via ESP were themselves successful disinformation campaigns conducted against the American public. Most people who have heard of them believe them, wholesale.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#64

Post by jacobolus » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 4:51 AM UTC

ncmncm wrote: post #61

jacobolus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fair to criticize the whole US intelligence establishment (and their congressional overseers, and every president of both parties for the past 40+ years) without thinking that Clapper should be personally criminally liable for following standard practice here. * * * While we are talking about cowardly though, why has Edward Snowden, president of the Freedom of the Press Foundation (!), neither said anything publ…

What do you imagine Snowden is supposed to do? He has exactly zero control over any single detail of any of it. He is under the thumb of a murderous thug. Not speaking up says more than he ever could aloud.

He is supposed to resign as president of the Freedom of the Press Foundation, or even urge its dissolution.

Remaining there implies to the world that the Foundation does not believe its stated founding principles and is little more than a front organization for the Russian state, and undermines any past work he has done to promote press freedom.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#65

Post by ncmncm » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 4:51 AM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #33

photochemsyn wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is why Clapper wasn't at the very least charged with perjury for lying to Congress under oath. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/5-people-who-lied-...

You're allowed to lie to congress if asked about state secrets. You just need to make sure you classify all of your shady activities.

He should have replied to Mueller asking who was being protected against criminal prosecution by keeping the material classified.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#66

Post by jacobolus » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 4:51 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #53

jacobolus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fair to criticize the whole US intelligence establishment (and their congressional overseers, and every president of both parties for the past 40+ years) without thinking that Clapper should be personally criminally liable for following standard practice here. * * * While we are talking about cowardly though, why has Edward Snowden, president of the Freedom of the Press Foundation (!), neither said anything publ…

I think it's pretty obvious why. He's between a rock and a hard place. He was not beyond the reach of the US on allegations of spying releasing government secrets and a whole bunch of other laws he broke in order to become a whistleblower against the government's illicit programs --the only place which provided him refuge was Russia. No one else would take him. What do you expect, that he bite the cruel hand that fee…

> What do you expect, that he bite the cruel hand that feeds him?

Snowden’s claim to fame is “biting the hand” in service of humanity. Is he still a man of principle or has living in an actual police state turned him into a compliant pet? You tell me.

> very unwarranted swipe. Might as well request Obama

The name “Snowden” is in the title of this discussion topic. But requesting Obama return his Nobel Prize seems reasonable enough to me; feel free to do that here or wherever else.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#67

Post by ncmncm » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 5:03 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #64

ncmncm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you imagine Snowden is supposed to do? He has exactly zero control over any single detail of any of it. He is under the thumb of a murderous thug. Not speaking up says more than he ever could aloud.

He is supposed to resign as president of the Freedom of the Press Foundation, or even urge its dissolution. Remaining there implies to the world that the Foundation does not believe its stated founding principles and is little more than a front organization for the Russian state, and undermines any past work he has done to promote press freedom.

> I was generally a fan of Snowden (with some reservations) before the past 2 months...

Who do you imagine you are fooling? I doubt you are even being paid for such clumsy stooging.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#68

Post by ncmncm » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 5:06 AM UTC

ratsmack wrote: post #32

sha256sum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton Context: “ In 1967, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) identified Hampton as a radical threat. It tried to subvert his activities in Chicago, sowing disinformation among black progressive groups and placing a counterintelligence operative in the local Panthers organization. In December 1969, Hampton was drugged, shot and killed in his bed during a predawn raid at hi…

I suspect there are many more that we'll never hear about. The three letter agencies have the expertise and manpower to make anyone's death appear accidental or from natural causes.

There was the recent Rolling Stone reporter whose car was jimmied to stick the throttle at maximum, killing him in an "accident". No investigation.

Nobody will be prosecuted for that.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#69

Post by ncmncm » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 5:08 AM UTC

the_only_law wrote: post #30

boomboomsubban wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm not ignoring Obama's role in the attack, >the strike was carried out by Joint Special Operations Command, under the direction of the CIA. The CIA assassinating an American Citizen.

> The CIA assassinating an American Citizen. Oh they’ve done much worse to US citizens, and got away with it.

This one right out in public, though. They have got brazen.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#70

Post by jacobolus » Wed, Apr 27, 2022, 5:17 AM UTC

ncmncm wrote: post #67

jacobolus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is supposed to resign as president of the Freedom of the Press Foundation, or even urge its dissolution. Remaining there implies to the world that the Foundation does not believe its stated founding principles and is little more than a front organization for the Russian state, and undermines any past work he has done to promote press freedom.

> I was generally a fan of Snowden (with some reservations) before the past 2 months... Who do you imagine you are fooling? I doubt you are even being paid for such clumsy stooging.

I think Snowden’s initial leak exposing widespread illegal action by the US intelligence community was a courageous act of conscience, and I think he did his best to reveal criminal behavior in what he considered to be a measured and responsible way. I think the US presidents since should have pardoned him and welcomed him to return to the USA (but I also understand the other side of this argument, and I think reasonable people can disagree on this question). But in light of the Ukraine war, it’s hard to trust his more recent motivations.

You have no problem with the president of the “Freedom of the Press Foundation” giving Putin a free pass for (a) mass murder of civilians and (b) systematic attack on freedom of the press in Russia and around the world? What do you imagine the Freedom of the Press Foundation is supposed to stand for?

Who am I supposed to be a stooge for? The people of Ukraine and their supporters? The (former) independent Russian press? A secret cabal of CIA-funded Ukrainian gay Jewish Nazis using their secret biolabs to turn us all into lizard people?

I’m all for holding the USA (and Britain, Germany, Saudia Arabia, Israel, China, Turkey, India, ...) accountable for censorship, crimes against journalists, illegal surveillance, etc., but the ongoing atrocities in Ukraine and linked press crackdown are without any doubt the most acute threat to freedom of the press (and more generally to Enlightenment values / classical liberalism / democracy) in the world in April 2022. Those who don’t even acknowledge that Russian actions are illegal and morally unjustifiable are completely undermining whatever principles they purported to hold.