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HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

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Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#61

Post by travisoliphant »

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

Thanks for showing up here and replying. I can understand the net being cast too wide for a real problem you are trying to solve. It does have real consequences for already under-resourced communities, though.

I appreciate the "fix-it-twice" attitude implied by the RCA promise (Root Cause Analysis for those who also had to look it up). Also, consider recognition and restitution for the unnecessary work you created for the NumFOCUS director, a NumFOCUS lawyer, and the SymPy maintainers.

A $25k donation to NumFOCUS would be a good start.

If you are willing to talk about what happened publicly, I'm starting a podcast/video series to discuss business and open-source. This would make an interesting conversation. Perhaps we can turn this into a positive to raise awareness and inspire better behavior in the industry? Ping me.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#62

Post by tomxor »

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

Possible solutions to affect some justice and reclaim your image:

  1. Fire WorthIT Solutions (no RCA necessary, do not automate or outsource DMCA, even if it's human based automation)
  2. Apologise to SymPy
  3. Discuss internally the cost-vs-benefit (more than monetary) of embarking on copyright policing as part of your company's future strategy
  4. Blog results of #3
WRT #3, sustainability comes to mind - if dissemination of solutions is a serious threat to your current business model/implementation (something you might want to validate anyway) then consider adapting to mitigate it to the point of irrelevance. Perhaps you are already doing this, but DMCA policing is at best a distraction and at worst a PR nightmare and menace to FOSS like today, it also doesn't scale well.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#63

Post by zamalek »

zomglings wrote: post #38

I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects at scale for no good reason. FUCK you for taking down the the documentation for a harmless open source symbolic mathematics engine without any justification that I can see. What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? Also…

HackerRank and LeetCode are a scourge on our industry, for more reasons than this shitty behavior.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#64

Post by A1kmm »

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

To ensure that they aren't liable to HackerRank for any infringing content, GitHub has to keep content down for at least 10 days after receiving a counter notification.

Do you plan to contact GitHub and give them a legally binding agreement to indemnify them for any infringement of HackerRank's copyright in the material they took down (I'm sure there is no such infringement, but by agreeing you won't sue GitHub for restoring the content, you effectively retract the notice and give them no reason to wait the 10 days)?

I think a sincere apology should include steps to urgently minimise the ongoing damage to the existing victims, not just analyse what went wrong to prevent hurting other victims.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#65

Post by rvivek »

rdl wrote: post #59
rvivek wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phew, this sounded like a scene from a Tarantino movie. We engage a 3rd party for this service. That said, ultimately, we are accountable for this because it's our reputation is at stake. We are looking into it ASAP and this action will be reverted. We do need to get to the RCA to ensure we are giving strict guidelines on DMCA activity with the 3rd party or perhaps even consider switching to a new one.

You are using a third party to perform an action which at core is counter to how the Internet works, AND you are using the same third party who has acted in bad faith before and did exactly the same thing to another victim of yours, and now you're deflecting onto the third party? This is entirely on you at this point.

I literally said this in the comment above -- "That said, ultimately, we are accountable for this because it's our reputation is at stake."

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#66

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

gurjeet wrote: post #34
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if a lawyer got censured for this. That's how fraudulent DMCA takedowns should get fixed. It would also be nice if Github would implement instant restoration via counternotice as allowed by the DMCA. Implementing only half of the law enables this sort of abuse.

Github does provide pretty descriptive method of submitting in their dmca repository readme [1], and in every takedown notice, as well. [1]: github.com/github/dmca/ > Our help articles provide more details on our DMCA takedown policy and [how to file a counter notice][2]. [2]: https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-polic...

This is still an asymmetric, unfair process. Automatic takedowns from bad faith actors are catered to left and right but you have to negotiate a bureaucracy with manual review to get restoration. The DMCA doesn't require this to receive safe harbor protection.

Provide a form where an up to date contact point can be submitted that you can forward to the plaintiff and then restore the content. It's that simple. They can deal with litigating the dispute from that point on and Github is not responsible.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#67

Post by zomglings »

beckman466 wrote: post #57
zomglings wrote: post #38

I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects at scale for no good reason. FUCK you for taking down the the documentation for a harmless open source symbolic mathematics engine without any justification that I can see. What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? Also…

> And FUCK me for not having the steel to just take my code off of GitHub. I am part of the problem. as a user you literally are not the problem. the problem is the monopolization of technology by a small group of investors, which makes it nearly impossible for alternatives to rise. why isn't a platform like Github part of the commons instead of a private, proprietary fiefdom? why is it instead the private property o…

I do think that I am part of the problem.

Although there is no commons alternative, there is Sourcehut - run by a team that is dedicated to the principles of free software. I should be giving them the money that I spend on GitHub.

At the very least, I should be giving them more money than I give GitHub... I will do that immediately.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#68

Post by [deleted] »

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

[deleted]

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#69

Post by faddypaddy34 »

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

No you aren't. You are only sorry this made it to the front page of HN. Revoke the contract and stop with DMCA takedowns. Unless your company has invented brand new ways of solving common algorithms everything you are doing is most likely derivative work anyway.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#70

Post by rvivek »

tomxor wrote: post #62
rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

Possible solutions to affect some justice and reclaim your image: 1. Fire WorthIT Solutions (no RCA necessary, do not automate or outsource DMCA, even if it's human based automation) 2. Apologise to SymPy 3. Discuss internally the cost-vs-benefit (more than monetary) of embarking on copyright policing as part of your company's future strategy 4. Blog results of #3 WRT #3, sustainability comes to mind - if disseminati…

Good distillation. Will follow-up with a blog post on this.
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