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‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

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Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#61

Post by Verdex »

LegitShady wrote: post #22
QuikAccount wrote: post #4

Fully in favor of this. I recently had to cancel a subscription that had no "cancel subscription" button and instead forced you to contact customer service so they could try to sell you on discounts and etc. No, just let me cancel and get on with my day. Unfortunately, it seems health clubs(and I assume gyms?) are exempt from this when they are like 80% of the problem.

I've had issues with gyms and also a cable internet provider where the employees say they've processed your cancellation but I found later that for some reason it hadn't worked and I was still subscribed. A cable provider sent me a bill for $300 of equipment I had returned three months earlier and I was only lucky I kept the receipt from returning the equipment that I could prove I had done it. Since the items had be…

I've kept my reciept for the cable equipment that I returned when canceling my service. 6 years ago. I plan on keeping it until after I'm dead (don't know what my next of kin will have to deal with) just in case.

I don't feel that I'm being paranoid.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#62

Post by kllvql »

datadata wrote: post #12

The effect of this bill is probably that it will either never be enforced or companies will terminate business in Pennsylvania, at least until more jurisdictions adopt compatible rules. At best companies would only offer these rights for Pennsylvania residents. Local legislation seems incompatible with the economies of scale of internet commerce. I wish that rather than creating laws like this that only govern a tiny…

I find it fascinating that there are more than 11,000 tax jurisdictions in the USA[0]. I think the comparison is interesting, as I'm sure many of these are ignored by many online retailers. It seems like there are some efforts at standardizing Sales Tax approaches across the country. Similar efforts could be interesting for consumer protections.

[0] https://taxfoundation.org/state-sales-tax-jurisdictions-in-t...

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#63

Post by _moof »

logicalmonster wrote: post #8

This is one of those things that sounds really good on the surface, and hopefully it is so, but I'm always wary of unintended consequences when it comes to legislation. Are there any loopholes or bad behavior this might enable? Just something to keep in mind and consider, but on the surface I'd have to say that this does sound pretty good.

Essentially the same law already exists in California. The only effect has been the intended one.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#64

Post by jlawson »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #58
Victerius wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the pandemic, I built a home gym in a spare space at home for a couple hundred dollars. I'm never paying for a gym again.

> I'm never paying for a gym again. I believe for most gymgoers, a primary purpose of going to the gym is to hang out with your gym friends. If you just want exercise, you can do body weight exercises for free; a couple hundred dollars is overkill.

No, not the case.

I've been going to gyms for years. Have never spoken more than a single sentence to anyone there and 99.5% of the other people I see there are also training and not socializing. In fact I can specific remember one pair who were socializing in the gym once; I saw them about 10 months ago, it was very irritating and so unusual that I still remember it now.

Bodyweight workouts can't come close to the effectiveness or satisfaction of a proper set of weights.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#65

Post by bombcar »

duxup wrote: post #17
logicalmonster wrote: post #8

This is one of those things that sounds really good on the surface, and hopefully it is so, but I'm always wary of unintended consequences when it comes to legislation. Are there any loopholes or bad behavior this might enable? Just something to keep in mind and consider, but on the surface I'd have to say that this does sound pretty good.

> unintended consequences What do you think might happen?

One thing I can think of immediately is that smaller companies may have to implement something now that wasn't there - whereas larger can easily absorb the cost.

I've seen "subscription forms" that don't actually process anything, they just save the info in a database for someone to manually do stuff with later. These companies will now have to work out how to do a cancel button.

Arguably, they should have to anyway, and it's not likely to be a big issue, but these types of legislation are often used to make a "moat" for established players that new ones find hard to cross.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#66

Post by klabb3 »

zja wrote: post #19

Not to excuse companies that make you jump through hoops to unsubscribe, but is there any reason you can't just call your credit card/bank and cut off transactions to a company that's giving you a hard time? I've heard horror stories about people trying to cancel gym memberships, and wondered why they don't just stop paying, and let the gym figure it out.

The American personal banking experience feels so shady and insecure. Afaict companies often have the ability to pull money out of my bank account or credit card, that's just the way subscriptions work here. I just have to trust they don't abuse it.

In my home country we've had a national system for electronic invoices for ~10 years which allows you to receive invoices to your bank account. You can remove any such entry at any point in time. You also see all scheduled payments ahead of time and need to sign them before the due date, using a 2fa system that isn't tied to the bank itself. It's not perfect, and even feels a little aged today, but it's so much better than here in the US.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#67

Post by bombcar »

datadata wrote: post #40
sk5t wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies will terminate business in Pennsylvania It's a fairly populous state at over 4% of the US total, I can't imagine national companies nixing PA.

I think ignoring it is more likely. Imagine instead every jurisdiction enacting similar unique laws. You'd have ~25 things to comply with.

We already see this - have you read the disclaimers on loans? Many will have a call out for California, Wisconsin, and South Dakota if I remember correctly, as those states have certain things required or prohibited.

Any online store dealing with gun or gun-adjacent stuff already has been dealing with variations of these for years; knives that are illegal in certain areas, etc.

Home Depot has to block shipping gas-powered lawn equipment to CA now.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#68

Post by johnqian »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #58
Victerius wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the pandemic, I built a home gym in a spare space at home for a couple hundred dollars. I'm never paying for a gym again.

> I'm never paying for a gym again. I believe for most gymgoers, a primary purpose of going to the gym is to hang out with your gym friends. If you just want exercise, you can do body weight exercises for free; a couple hundred dollars is overkill.

This doesn't ring true to me; most people at the gyms I've been to don't talk to anyone. I think most people actually want the equipment, mainly the squat rack, bench press, and treadmills. I personally love bodyweight exercises but I still feel I'm missing something without heavyweight squats and deadlifts.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#69

Post by klabb3 »

kingcharles wrote: post #47
zja wrote: post #19

Not to excuse companies that make you jump through hoops to unsubscribe, but is there any reason you can't just call your credit card/bank and cut off transactions to a company that's giving you a hard time? I've heard horror stories about people trying to cancel gym memberships, and wondered why they don't just stop paying, and let the gym figure it out.

LOL. I called my bank once to dispute a transaction and they terminated my account as it was easier to them than dealing with the support issue.

Objective failed successfully.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#70

Post by bombcar »

datadata wrote: post #37
kijin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of Pennsylvania governs a much larger population than just a bunch of local jurisdictions acting in unison. Unless you mean entire countries by "local jurisdictions."

Pennsylvania is less than 4% of the US population. That's a really small piece and it wouldn't be sustainable if every jurisdiction that small enacted different rules

Amazon would love it, as it would begin to crush smaller retailers and they have the capacity to handle dealing with various law differences.
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