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A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

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Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#61
post #45

There is absolutely no sense in which antabuse "cures alcoholism", I really can't think of a worse way to put that. All it does is cause a violent physical reaction when alcohol is consumed. Alcoholism is an umbrella term for 2 co-occurring disorders, one physical and one mental. On the physical side, alcohol produces an allergy which manifests as an intense physical craving for more alcohol - craving in the sense of…

Allergy? Are you sure that’s the right word?

Use of the term allergy often indicates that the individual is sharing from an AA-based viewpoint, as allergy and other antiquated terms are central to the descriptive dogma of the groups.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#62
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One anecdote to another: Naltrexone isn't all that different from what you're describing Disulfiram as here - it's an opiod blocker so when you drink you get the poison and not the happy chemicals. That doesn't help with addiction, it's subjecting yourself to negative effects / conditioning for drinking. Naltrexone doesn't work for me. It is not very effective for some people.

Quoted post unavailable.

Yes, there’s a protocol and it’s called the alcohol withdrawal scale. Advocating for people to switch from alcohol to xanax to quit drinking… this is utter madness and I strongly advise anyone who reads this to completely disregard this advice.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#64
I would prefer to see how we're progressing on the 'prevention of anxiety in the first place' front rather than another money-making band-aid for illusory effect.

Not dismissing anxiety and a desire from those suffering to get out of it, but this wreaks of another case of solving difficult/complex problems with 'simple' solutions...

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#65

There is absolutely no sense in which antabuse "cures alcoholism", I really can't think of a worse way to put that. All it does is cause a violent physical reaction when alcohol is consumed. Alcoholism is an umbrella term for 2 co-occurring disorders, one physical and one mental. On the physical side, alcohol produces an allergy which manifests as an intense physical craving for more alcohol - craving in the sense of…

Is there any medically backed information on the idea that alcoholism is an allergic reaction to alcohol? I mean -- it doesn't seem like a great analogy, but I don't generally have an uncontrollable desire to overindulge in cat dander and pollen, personally.

No. Allergic reactions are the immune system responding to a substance in a hypersensitive way[1]. There is however a genetic component to how people respond to alcohol. Some people after having 1 drink have a strong desire to continue drinking to blackout levels. Others are more likely to feel sick or sleepy after 2 drinks and have a desire to stop. It isn't an immune system reaction, but it is a reaction.

The AA community generally considers this a disease that has no cure. Once an alcoholic you are permanently an alcoholic. So that is why you'll see people pushing the idea that it is similar to an allergy. They are correct that genetic differences exist, but in the real world, many people have substance abuse problems due to stress or anxiety or childhood trauma. Meaning the biological components are far less of an issue than the psychological and mental health component in most cases of substance abuse. A well documented point of evidence of this is heroin use in Vietnam [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_hypersensitivity [2] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abst...

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#66
Phenylethylamine works somewhat like that: take 2-3g and don't drink. If you do, you'll heavily regret it as it will fuck up your blood pressure to the point of getting all red and passing out. Not safe at all, but it did work for me for a while. Quitting out of fear can work.

A better alternative to treating alcoholism and anxiety are gabapentinoids and gabaergics. There are a few of them, and indeed Gabapentin has been known to be used exactly for these purposes in the US (not Europe, God no, they'll think you're fucking insane).

At low-moderate dosages, they give the anxiety relief/relaxation effects of alcohol with none of the negative effects, except withdrawals - several days of insomnia/nightmares if stopping them abruptly. They work on the same receptors as alcohol, so it's kind of a replacement, and it's much easier to taper off them. However if you start taking them together, that can be a problem, as they complement each other. You can end up drinking less... or getting even more fucked every night. As always, gotta be really careful and follow some rules.

I have quit alcohol completely after more than a decade of use and abuse, I realized it's fucking me more than helping (actually always knew, but it was irresistible). Lately I was mainly using it to go to sleep, so I found this wonderful drug called Tizanidine, an alpha2 agonist prescribed as a muscle relaxant, but at slightly higher doses it quite literally knocks you tf out.

No major negative side effects besides indeed, relaxing muscles (so it's best to exercise when waking up or your joints may be in danger), no withdrawals. Tolerance builds up rather fast, after 2 weeks you need double the dosage. But 4 weeks was enough for alcohol cravings to subside a bit. I still miss the taste of beer hah.

Since I could fall asleep at any time, that was one major reason to not need alcohol. I even stopped myself from going to the store by taking Tizanidine as soon as I started thinking about beer (which was almost always in the evening). Then I found something for depression (SSRIs don't work).

You'll say, "you just traded one drug for another" - yes, I did, however the positive:negative effects ratio has massively shifted towards the former.

And I regularly quit my (self-made or self acquired... man, fuck mental healthcare) medication so I can test how addicted I am. It's nothing like alcohol was, that is absolutely life destroying shit that I hope I never taste ever again for the rest of my life.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#67
Tips on how to read a science paper like this that involves mice or rats and makes lots of implicit and explicit bd claims about relevance to humans:

(from of a card carrying neurogeneticist who uses mice and rats to study the biology and treatment of human diseases, specifically alcoholism and substance use disorders)

Step 1: Go to Methods section of the paper and check the SEX, AGE, and TYPE(s) of mice or rats that that the team used.

Here is what this team writes:

“Male ICR mice were used for behavioral experiments (age: 6–10 weeks; Tokyo Laboratory Animals Science Co., Ltd., Tokyo, Japan). The total number of animals used in the study were 232 animals.”

So SEX = all males

AGE = 6 to 10 wks, which in human terms is roughly 12 to 19 years-of-age — teenagers.

TYPE = ICR = Imperial College Institute of Cancer Research albino outbred mouse stock

Do you see any problems yet with the design?

Step 2: How many mice did they study? ANSWER = 232. This is a substantial number of mice to study, so we expect to see dense data plots and low error terms.

Step 3: Check if they tried to do the work blinded to the treatment groups.

Step 4: Review the individual case data and statistics only if you feel the work passed steps 1, 2, and 3, above.

The goal of the first four steps is to establish the likely relevance of results and their generality to both sexes, multiple ages, and to other types of mice or rodents. Once that is established then and only then can we speculate in relevance to humans.

This study FAILS on all three of the first steps—one sex; one narrow age range, one quirky type of outbred stock.

Do not even bother to read the results. Instead send the authors a letter asking them why they thought they could ignore studying female mice. Ask them why they only studied juveniles. Ask them why they did not study other types of mice before getting their public relations team all fired up. Ask them if they think this work robustly generalizes from young male iCR mice to humanity at large.

I love using rodents in research because you CAN do the studies right! Work using rodents CAN be highly relevant to humans heath care.

Mice and rats can be great models for human disease but only if used correctly—rodents and primates are in the same super-order of mammals—the euarchontoglires, aka the superprimates! They are evolutionarily a bit closer to us than are cats, dogs, pigs, bats, whales, and giraffes.

Below is a link to my first study using mice if you want to see how research using rodents should be done. I was a young assistant professor with little funding at a second tier research institution. If I could do this then, then researchers at the top research institution in Japan should be able to do the right thing today.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8929428/

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#68
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One anecdote to another: Naltrexone isn't all that different from what you're describing Disulfiram as here - it's an opiod blocker so when you drink you get the poison and not the happy chemicals. That doesn't help with addiction, it's subjecting yourself to negative effects / conditioning for drinking. Naltrexone doesn't work for me. It is not very effective for some people.

Quoted post unavailable.

"Also anecdote: the easiest way to quit alcohol is with xanax."

Ugh. Replacing addiction with addiction. Go this route if you have extreme medical conditions requiring it. EG. You are an alcoholic with serious liver issues, then by all means substitue xanax. Rehabs are full of people with xanax issues.

Re: A drug that cures alcoholism may be the next anti-anxiety medication

#70

I would prefer to see how we're progressing on the 'prevention of anxiety in the first place' front rather than another money-making band-aid for illusory effect. Not dismissing anxiety and a desire from those suffering to get out of it, but this wreaks of another case of solving difficult/complex problems with 'simple' solutions...

This is what I think often when I see news about anxiety and other mental disorder. I have a lot of respect for researchers working on these topics, but I'd like to hear more from researchers who e.g. try to find more accurate picture of the risk factors of these things.
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