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Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

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Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#61

Post by oblio »

yywwbbn wrote: post #21
allendoerfer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are basically describing Germany. I try to put it on first-mover disadvantage to make me feel better: Basically Germany has had a relatively functioning administration for hundreds of years (Italy even for thousands). Compared to something you would design from scratch in 2022 it looks a bit archaic. I celebrate every little step forward.

The US administrative and political system is objectively older and more archaic than the ones in almost every European country (besides Britain, Switzerland and maybe(?) Scandinavian countries). Germany was established in 1949 and Italy is a fairly new country as well.

Modern Germany and Italy are successor states to much older entities, and frequently stuff from those ages creeps in.

Well, every European country has this. France is at the Fifth Republic right now but I can bet that there's some obscure law hidden somewhere that's from the time of Philip II of France.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#62

Post by dgellow »

inductive_magic wrote: post #11
0xfaded wrote: post #3

If I did another startup in Europe, I would incorporate in Delaware and raise US money from the get go. It's cool to see the YC terms borrowed directly, and hopefully that would be a shot across the bows of European investors. But to really give European founders leverage they need access to US valuations and terms. I think semi-philanthropic incubators like these could really help by guiding founders to form US enti…

From someone who hasn't interacted with the startup world much yet: what are some problems companies in Europe would have to deal with? What liberties are exclusive to the US? I'd imagine lots of complications of running a US-based company within Europe. I can't imagine moving to the US, and I'm sure that lots of smart people in the EU are in the same camp. At the same time, I'd be very interested in providing high v…

> I can't imagine moving to the US, and I'm sure that lots of smart people in the EU are in the same camp. At the same time, I'd be very interested in providing high value to and being part of a company with the velocity and dynamics of a start-up.

I personally do this via contracting. I’m in Europe and work for people in the US. I’m currently working with two companies, both are very early stage startups, it’s very dynamic, everything has to be built from scratch and I feel I have lot of influence over products and devices which is something I enjoy.

And I still have all benefits from Western European countries.

Not sure how things will evolve if they start to focus on hiring employees and move to a more standard company structure but so far things are going well.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#64

Post by zoobab »

mattrighetti wrote: post #32

> The exodus of tech talent and lack of startup creation in Italy has worried investors From my experience I can tell that most people here don't want to waste time in a startup with its high risk factor, and it's even more worrying if you come from a college environment where you expect that _Let's do this, I don't care_ kind of attitude. The majority of new grads prefer a secure (and most of the time underpaid) pos…

"> The exodus of tech talent and lack of startup creation in Italy has worried investors"

Working hard for investors and shareholders!

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#65

Post by samatman »

epolanski wrote: post #54
wlecometo wrote: post #23

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . these two things alone and the fact there are better places in europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france, czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder…

Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do places with low taxes have this? And the education of your worker's is paid by the government, so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their student loans. And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance (you may, but y…

The sum of these affordances adds up to a market for lemons.

A startup can hire Italians anywhere, certainly anywhere in EU, so the benefit of pair-for education doesn't require Italian jurisdiction.

Everything else sounds really handy if your company is destined for failure, since there are so many ways to get a bailout or take a "loan" with no interest which, hey, you also don't have to pay it back! That's a grant coupled to a later and optional donation, not a loan.

A full-time employer pays for their employee's health care, it doesn't matter if it comes out of taxes or not.

Business in Italy is too expensive, and bureaucracy too high, and you have done a fantastic job of explaining why that is while touting it as benefits!

If I looked into the relationship between nepotism and getting access to all this free money, would I be surprised? Bet I wouldn't be.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#66

Post by dmitriid »

samatman wrote: post #65
epolanski wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do places with low taxes have this? And the education of your worker's is paid by the government, so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their student loans. And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance (you may, but y…

The sum of these affordances adds up to a market for lemons. A startup can hire Italians anywhere, certainly anywhere in EU, so the benefit of pair-for education doesn't require Italian jurisdiction. Everything else sounds really handy if your company is destined for failure, since there are so many ways to get a bailout or take a "loan" with no interest which, hey, you also don't have to pay it back! That's a grant…

> fantastic job of explaining why that is while touting it as benefits

Because, as we all know, all businesses are IT startups that can afford to pay for comprehensive medical care, every employee of every company can afford the dissolution of a company (or just an emergency) etc.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#67

Post by johnthewise »

dmitriid wrote: post #66
samatman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sum of these affordances adds up to a market for lemons. A startup can hire Italians anywhere, certainly anywhere in EU, so the benefit of pair-for education doesn't require Italian jurisdiction. Everything else sounds really handy if your company is destined for failure, since there are so many ways to get a bailout or take a "loan" with no interest which, hey, you also don't have to pay it back! That's a grant…

> fantastic job of explaining why that is while touting it as benefits Because, as we all know, all businesses are IT startups that can afford to pay for comprehensive medical care, every employee of every company can afford the dissolution of a company (or just an emergency) etc.

One could argue that IT startups are all that matter.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#68

Post by riccardomc »

L_226 wrote: post #16
0xfaded wrote: post #3

If I did another startup in Europe, I would incorporate in Delaware and raise US money from the get go. It's cool to see the YC terms borrowed directly, and hopefully that would be a shot across the bows of European investors. But to really give European founders leverage they need access to US valuations and terms. I think semi-philanthropic incubators like these could really help by guiding founders to form US enti…

I am doing this right now, Stripe Atlas Delaware C-corp but operating in Germany. I could have incorporated a GmbH for €25,000 (goes into an account to act as collateral against future liability) - which uses all my savings basically, or a UG for €1 - but then I can't add other shareholders until I pay an additional €25k to convert it to a GmbH. For my startup, which is capital intensive, I have no choice but to use…

If capital is the problem you could also consider the Netherlands which requires EUR 0.01. You will need to pay a notary for the incorporation tho.

https://business.gov.nl/starting-your-business/choosing-a-bu...

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#69

Post by monkeydust »

L_226 wrote: post #41
tluyben2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London could work depending on your business. Hope you involved an international tax lawyer; there can be a lot of issues with the German taxes in this setup if you did not do this carefully.

London probably won't work for me. I have not pulled the trigger yet, tbh I am less worried about German taxes than I am running a C Corp from outside the US. Mainly because of the litigation heavy US culture, opaque paperwork overhead etc.

London probably has most generous tax incentives for startups to offer their investors. S/EIS.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#70

Post by L_226 »

dgellow wrote: post #59
L_226 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am doing this right now, Stripe Atlas Delaware C-corp but operating in Germany. I could have incorporated a GmbH for €25,000 (goes into an account to act as collateral against future liability) - which uses all my savings basically, or a UG for €1 - but then I can't add other shareholders until I pay an additional €25k to convert it to a GmbH. For my startup, which is capital intensive, I have no choice but to use…

> or a UG for €1 - but then I can't add other shareholders until I pay an additional €25k to convert it to a GmbH. Could you elaborate on this, or point to a source? The way I understand the mini-GmbH model (UG) there is no limitations regarding shareholders versus a standard GmbH. Not saying you’re wrong, I’m by far not an expert but I looked into creating a Unternehmergesellschaft ~1 year ago and don’t remember rea…

> The way I understand the mini-GmbH model (UG) there is no limitations regarding shareholders versus a standard GmbH.

This is correct, however from my understanding this is only at time of incorporation. If I was to incorporate and then get a term sheet from an investor, I would struggle to then make them a legal shareholder in my UG.

Perhaps I am also misunderstanding, re-reading [0] you could be correct. I did reach out to firma.de for clarification in February but never got a response.

[0] - https://www.firma.de/en/company-formation/what-is-a-ug-haftu...

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