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Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

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61–70 of 310 posts

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#61
post #25
post #19

Sigh ... gobolinux solved this quite elegantly over 20 years ago, and to this day most folks don't quite grok how simple and elegant their solution was.

What was the solution, and why is is simple and elegant?

There's a rather old review on LWN: https://lwn.net/Articles/66290/

It's essentially like Macos's /Applications directory, except where Macos supports the traditional POSIX fhs via a hidden /private root directory, Gobolinux hides these directories with a filesystem kludge.

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#62
post #5

From the original proposal from 2012 that is linked to in the article: > The primary commercial Unix implementation is nowadays Oracle Solaris. [...] By making the same change in Linux we minimize the difference towards the primary Unix implementation, thus easing portability from Solaris. I wonder what he means by "primary"? I'm reasonably sure than in 2012 OS X was used on more machines than Oracle Solaris.

I did a solaris 10 course in 2008, even then it felt that it was on the way out, with some big iron companies still having them of course, but then they still have systems even older than that.

Solaris 10 did have some neat features not found in Linux then, not just ZFS, but containers etc.

By 2012 as the concept of things like AWS was gaining traction, I'm surprised that legacy systems like solaris was even a consideration, I'd be very surprised if solaris was chosen in any greenfield installation (rather than extensions to existing companies with a lot of solaris/oracle) in the last 15 years.

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#63
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're talking about things that distro maintainers care about, namely servers. They are primarily not concerned with your workstation.

Was Solaris more used than HP-UX or AIX in 2012?

I'm sure it was, but the numbers compared to Linux and even FreeBSD would be tiny.

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#64
post #5

From the original proposal from 2012 that is linked to in the article: > The primary commercial Unix implementation is nowadays Oracle Solaris. [...] By making the same change in Linux we minimize the difference towards the primary Unix implementation, thus easing portability from Solaris. I wonder what he means by "primary"? I'm reasonably sure than in 2012 OS X was used on more machines than Oracle Solaris.

Is macOS still UNIX certified? I know old versions used to be. Apple doesn't advertise it anymore.

https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/certificates/1215p.pdf

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#65

I'm surprised that they are pushing to remove /bin and keep /usr/bin. Why not the other way round? Let's keep our binaries out of /usr! (as a first step to remove /usr altogether, since it has a confusing name). I long for a day where PATH=/bin is all we need.

Why not read the reasoning once?

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseFor...

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tyranny of the minority this is a trendy thing too, very often minorities who felt ignored, are now pushing to get more because of the tiranny of the majority had flaws (but to me is mostly unavoidable due to the natural economies of scale it grants). I don't know how one can design a social system where you balance both in the right way.

> the tiranny of the majority had flaws (but to me is mostly unavoidable due to the natural economies of scale it grants). In a different context, this is a source of frustration for me as a (partially) blind person advocating accessibility for blind people. The world is designed around the assumption, correct for most people, that people have the high-bandwidth, low-latency sense of sight. And that does lead to the…

One thing to keep in mind is that eyesight is a continuum between better than 20/20 to completely blind like you.

That means that without going the only-the-perfect-survive route, there are always going to be issues with how the world operates. For any given human problem, it's probably rare that it's optimized for even half the population.

Doesn't help you, being on the extreme of the eyesight problem, but the fact that we need to accommodate blind people also helps a bunch for people with vision issues and (commonly imperfect) correction.

So while you can consider yourself to be in the small percentage of completely blind people, you can also consider yourself to be in the majority of people with vision issues. Should we have avoided all of them in this world?

And that's wherein lies the issue with eugenics or any sort of artifical selection of our descendants: where is that line?

And just judging by this single comment, you are at least capable of eloquent, reasonable discussion, which is probably untrue for at least half the population.

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#67
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy is pretty decent, but comes with some big flaws: tyranny of the minority, enormous amounts of back-and-forth to get anything done, big egos at any level can stop progress. The problem is not in democracy itself as a concept. In both the open-source world and in society itself, the problems arise only when the demos (the population) either grow disinterested in democracy or is small in numbers. As for "tyr…

Quoted post unavailable.

One problem that the Weimar Republic suffered from is that there were too many small parties. Absorbing them is easy if you are the trump of the 30s and are willing to use violence behind the scenes to intimidate anyone who opposes you. Also, it helps to have connections with people who hate democracy in important political positions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_political_parties

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#68
post #13
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quoting the article: "Debian took a more incremental approach, in part because it strives not to make wholesale changes to users' systems like those required by a flag-day upgrade to a merged /usr. In 2016, the ability to voluntarily switch to that scheme was added, then some attempts were made for newer versions of the distribution to be installed with a merged /usr by default. [...] The location of some files w…

> The fact that the committee took a decision that the core package manager can't support is baffling to me. Why? Presumably the committee would be thereby deciding to drive development of the package manager toward whatever is required to support the high-level goal.

From a user perspective the high level problem would be merged directories. Which dpkg apparently already supports. Just not the way the committee wants it done.

> deciding to drive development of the package manager

Which is the hilarious part: No one seems to be working on it. The package maintainer for dpkg isn't required to it as long as he accepts reasonable patches, but only half finished patches (that identify themselves as such) are coming in when the reported issues are not outright ignored. Seems liked Debian suffers from the same issue every open source projects suffers from: A bunch of lazy and entitled as fuck users insisting on features without putting any effort in themselves.

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#69
post #11

Haven't used debian or debian based systems for many years. They do too much "automagic" things behind your back and thus tend to brick themselves, especially during major updates. Not really sure how they got so popular. The packaging ecosystem is also kinda mess.

From this comment, I assume you ran testing or unstable. Stable is great for letting up a server and let it run on its own for years without any maintenance (HN warning: No maintenance is of course never a good idea, but at least Debian made it possible) Testing ran in update conflicts at least once a month, but it was generally easy to resolve without bricking. Unstable, well, the name says it all.

No unstable, just regular release. Same story with ubuntu and friends. Ironically I've had better experience with rolling release distros.

Re: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the tiranny of the majority had flaws (but to me is mostly unavoidable due to the natural economies of scale it grants). In a different context, this is a source of frustration for me as a (partially) blind person advocating accessibility for blind people. The world is designed around the assumption, correct for most people, that people have the high-bandwidth, low-latency sense of sight. And that does lead to the…

One thing to keep in mind is that eyesight is a continuum between better than 20/20 to completely blind like you. That means that without going the only-the-perfect-survive route, there are always going to be issues with how the world operates. For any given human problem, it's probably rare that it's optimized for even half the population. Doesn't help you, being on the extreme of the eyesight problem, but the fact…

I think parent poster is actually only partially blind
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