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From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

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Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#61

Post by nosianu »

greatpostman wrote: post #19
Aperocky wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Increasing the number of bookings by 2% here, 3% there. I've always felt that there is a dilemma in this space. Any number of small UI features can claim a small increase that are often just noise and curated data (assuming no malicious baking), the cumulative increase isn't even close what the claims stacks up to. The only fundamental way for a business to make more money is to invent actual, new feature and busin…

Maybe. Without outing myself, I have work on a choke point widget on the front page of a top 10 USA website. We had 30 engineers running these tests all day long. Was common to get 10 million+ increases to the bottom line on very minor changes. This was over a sample size of 100 million page views.

> on a choke point widget

So a single data point? I didn't see it claimed that there is not a single small thing that can have a big effect. It's about large numbers. I think individual examples obfuscate more than they help us understand, when it is given in lieu of wider view instead of just as a support for one.

In this context, I would also like to see considerations of a larger picture. Sure, it helps any single company make more money. What about beyond that? Because money is a proximate goal, even if it's the ultimate one for a business, from a human society point of view that introduced this tool for a specific reason and not for its own sake.

For example, what does it mean to have some ultra-optimized large companies dominating their space? Would society really lose something without some micro-optimizations, even if they raise profit? The people who end up not making a purchase on a website because they are not as much caught in the optimized patterns, is it actually bad for them, or maybe they are actually better off and the optimizations tricked them into making an actually unfavorable (even if slightly) purchase? I think there is more to consider than just the view from the respective company or even the department. Are the means used to win actually good from a wider point of view that is not centered on that winner alone?

If someone does not make a purchase because something is slightly off, are they actually worse off, neutral or better in the end? It can't have been all that important to them to make that transaction, no?

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#62

Post by EnKopVand »

Aperocky wrote: post #17
cactus2093 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoiler alert: we mostly are. Engineers with 5 YOE are making $500k+ a year at these companies because they are generating much more than that in revenues and profits for the companies. Airbnb is worth $110B. It's not all blinking cursors, there are thousands of little experiments going on all the time. Increasing the number of bookings by 2% here, 3% there. Increasing the average price of bookings. Random extra feat…

> Increasing the number of bookings by 2% here, 3% there. I've always felt that there is a dilemma in this space. Any number of small UI features can claim a small increase that are often just noise and curated data (assuming no malicious baking), the cumulative increase isn't even close what the claims stacks up to. The only fundamental way for a business to make more money is to invent actual, new feature and busin…

> The only fundamental way for a business to make more money is to invent actual, new feature and business models.

I’m not sure this is fair for services like Airbnb where what they sell is conveniences.

Their entire product existed before Airbnb. It even existed before the internet. What Airbnb did so successful was that they branded themselves with a good product that disrupted the market by being easier to use.

The thing about disrupting markets by selling easy of use, is that your competition is already well versed in the market you disrupted. Some of them may do the dinosaur but others will take your ideas and try to make them better. If you don’t continuously improve the ease or use of your product, then people are going to download eurobooking or whatever other options there are now instead.

You know this, because you’ve likely done it yourself a million times with various applications that do the same thing, but some find a way to be easier to use.

Obviously these companies are going to want to find (or invent) new products to get included. But that is typically more of a non-software quest that eventually leads to some of the engineers being tasked with building what the marketing/sales/business process people find.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#63

Post by greatpostman »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #43
greatpostman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Without outing myself, I have work on a choke point widget on the front page of a top 10 USA website. We had 30 engineers running these tests all day long. Was common to get 10 million+ increases to the bottom line on very minor changes. This was over a sample size of 100 million page views.

Did you ever test doing nothing? I assume it's been studied, but I can imagine ways for 10% to actually be noise or seasonal/weekly/whatever variations.

Yeah that’s called the control. We have very sophisticated automated systems for measuring all of this

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#64

Post by hiq »

ta3411 wrote: post #39

I am going to be voted down into oblivion but it's okay. This is my throwaway account anyway. Here are my 3 pragmatic takes regarding this situation: - If you are an engineer, your total comp is easily north of $200,000. At that pay scale compared to other careers, I expect (and I did) to burn through the night as needed. That's a lot of money for anyone to expect to have a comfortable work/life balance. I always com…

> If you are an engineer, your total comp is easily north of $200,000. At that pay scale compared to other careers, I expect (and I did) to burn through the night as needed.

How are other careers relevant? You take the best offer you can get in the (SWE) market, and if avoiding burnout is a choice criterion for you, you avoid the corresponding companies. Many of them are willing to pay the same compensation or more with a reasonable work-life balance, especially once they realize that they also benefit from it one way or another.

One benefit of a free market is to help optimize resource allocations, and telling yourself "it could be worse" rather than asking "could it be better?" is counterproductive.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#65

Post by shankr »

mindwok wrote: post #21
cactus2093 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoiler alert: we mostly are. Engineers with 5 YOE are making $500k+ a year at these companies because they are generating much more than that in revenues and profits for the companies. Airbnb is worth $110B. It's not all blinking cursors, there are thousands of little experiments going on all the time. Increasing the number of bookings by 2% here, 3% there. Increasing the average price of bookings. Random extra feat…

Thanks for the perspective, I've never worked in this kind of company so I'm glad to hear you feel your talents aren't going to waste.

You would also see such 1% or 2% significant improvement in the AdTech being quite crucial. I worked at a local AdTech company where we were able to see real money coming in, not just metrics like CTR etc increasing.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#66

Post by heavyset_go »

ta3411 wrote: post #39

I am going to be voted down into oblivion but it's okay. This is my throwaway account anyway. Here are my 3 pragmatic takes regarding this situation: - If you are an engineer, your total comp is easily north of $200,000. At that pay scale compared to other careers, I expect (and I did) to burn through the night as needed. That's a lot of money for anyone to expect to have a comfortable work/life balance. I always com…

You can't buy a home near work on $200k and send your kids to good schools in many places. Plenty of people make more than $200k and don't break their backs doing it, either.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#68

Post by nishs »

prox wrote: post #36
anon2020dot00 wrote: post #32

Excellent article. The biggest thing that I got is that AirBNB doesn't have a healthy culture. It seems like AirBNB is trying to foster a family-like environment where-in there is no division between work and life and that work is life. Basically a common tactic of corporations is to espouse "we are a family" but it is just a manipulation tactic for employees to work long-hours and to give their all to the company. T…

One simple protip for the newly starters : don’t believe the hype. Don’t EVER buy into overwork “to take one for the team”. A small crunch at the end of a deadline : fine. A perpetual overwork culture is not something a family would do to you. Also look at what a company does instead of what it says.

+1. Do not drink the kool-aid. Take things in good faith generally, but be measured.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#69

Post by biorach »

billllll wrote: post #38
anon2020dot00 wrote: post #32

Excellent article. The biggest thing that I got is that AirBNB doesn't have a healthy culture. It seems like AirBNB is trying to foster a family-like environment where-in there is no division between work and life and that work is life. Basically a common tactic of corporations is to espouse "we are a family" but it is just a manipulation tactic for employees to work long-hours and to give their all to the company. T…

Netflix emphasizes "team" over "family" to explicitly promote an environment where getting fired is easy. Is that really a better alternative? Whether it is a "family" or a "team," you can be assured that the company will be looking out for itself first and foremost, potentially to the detriment of the employees. I don't think that's necessarily bad, but you as an individual need to watch out for yourself no matter w…

> Netflix emphasizes "team" over "family" to explicitly promote an environment where getting fired is easy. Is that really a better alternative?

Considering the same labour laws apply to Airbnb and Netflix, yes it's a far more honest approach. Not admirable, not right or fair, but a lot less manipulative.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#70

Post by suresk »

ta3411 wrote: post #39

I am going to be voted down into oblivion but it's okay. This is my throwaway account anyway. Here are my 3 pragmatic takes regarding this situation: - If you are an engineer, your total comp is easily north of $200,000. At that pay scale compared to other careers, I expect (and I did) to burn through the night as needed. That's a lot of money for anyone to expect to have a comfortable work/life balance. I always com…

For me, it is less about the money and more about sort of an implied contract that exists at some companies and less so at others. That is, I'm willing to work extra hours to finish something or deal with a production emergency, with the understanding that:

- I get flexibility at other times to make up for it.

- It isn't super frequent or for very long.

- It is for a good reason.

I don't think even 300k or 400k (or whatever the going rate is for 20 YoE) would be enough for me to deal with regular death marches to help someone meet their OKRs for that quarter. I've happily worked until 3 AM a bunch of nights in a row on something that was important, but I've also busted my ass for things that could have been delivered later or not at all and it wouldn't have really mattered, and those ones are a real punch in the gut.

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