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ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

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Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#61

Post by goosedragons »

archerx wrote: post #52
flatiron wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eink is just really expensive right now. I believe that it’s heavily patented and only one or two places produces the panels.

No they're not that expensive, I bought a 7 color epaper panel for 60$ for a e-comic book project. You could make one of these frames and save 400-500$ https://www.waveshare.com/product/displays/e-paper/13.3inch-... ^ Here is a 13inch high resolution epaper screen that I found.

They are expensive compared to traditional LCDs, you can easily buy a portable 13" 1080p monitor that includes all the parts to hook it up to a computer, a plastic case etc. for less than $200. Heck you can even get a 2560x1600 one for less than $200 taking a quick peek at Amazon.

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#62

Post by Beltalowda »

voldacar wrote: post #53

When can I get one that's several feet x several feet in dimensions, like an actual painting's canvas? Eink has been around for several years now but apparently they are unable to just make a big panel? That combined with their idiotic pricing scheme makes me think their management is just stupid

If you want to shell out $1500 you can get a 31.2" display[1], $2500 for a 42" one[2]. There's a colour version of that 31.2" one for $2300[3].

The problem isn't inability to make them or "stupid management", just that there isn't a whole lot of demand for these sizes. E-ink displays are great but come with some serious limitations and trade-offs: colour displays are in its infancy at best and refresh rates are an issue. This limits its usage to cases where colour and refreshing isn't very important, but where good legibility and power usage are. The two most common are e-readers and store signage, but the demand for very large displays in that area is very limited.

For an art display the refresh rate isn't a big issue and low power would be a huge boon, but lack of good colour would be more of an issue.

[1]: https://shopkits.eink.com/product/31-2%cb%9d-monochrome-epap...

[2]: https://shopkits.eink.com/product/42%cb%9d-monochrome-epaper...

[3]: https://shopkits.eink.com/product/31-2%cb%9d-color-epaper-di...

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#63

Post by goosedragons »

voldacar wrote: post #53

When can I get one that's several feet x several feet in dimensions, like an actual painting's canvas? Eink has been around for several years now but apparently they are unable to just make a big panel? That combined with their idiotic pricing scheme makes me think their management is just stupid

You can buy big panels. They use them for digital signage but the prices aren't better. Here's a 42" one for $2500:

https://shopkits.eink.com/product/42%CB%9D-monochrome-epaper...

Very few companies are making eInk like displays which is why prices are so high.

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#64

Post by 5560675260 »

robinsoh wrote: post #32
flatiron wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eink is just really expensive right now. I believe that it’s heavily patented and only one or two places produces the panels.

> Eink is just really expensive I am curious what volumes you are buying and which panels and how you're judging whether something is expensive or not. > I believe that it’s heavily patented and only one or two places produces the panels. I would ask that these repeated claims would come with some evidence. The previous times I asked the respondents just did patents.google.com/search?eink and treated that as evidence…

> would you feel my claim was accurate?

No, because Coca-cola isn't expensive - it costs about as much soft drinks produced by other companies. Furthermore I don't believe that there are any relevant patents left - its formula is a trade secret. IMO if this was the case with e-ink - we would see much better adoption and prices.

Is Windows expensive right now? I don't know how much exactly vendors pay to install it on hardware before sale. But I do know that Windows beats free alternatives (FreeDOS, Linux), so it's at least not unreasonably/prohibitively expensive. Furthermore Windows price is justified by its great advantage over competitors - huge ecosystem of software. Can the same be said about E ink? It's worse than literal paper for static images, worse than LCD for dynamic content. There is a niche for content that sometimes has to change, like on price tags, but those screens are significantly cheaper than what we're complaining about in this thread.

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#65

Post by m-p-3 »

goosedragons wrote: post #61
archerx wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they're not that expensive, I bought a 7 color epaper panel for 60$ for a e-comic book project. You could make one of these frames and save 400-500$ https://www.waveshare.com/product/displays/e-paper/13.3inch-... ^ Here is a 13inch high resolution epaper screen that I found.

They are expensive compared to traditional LCDs, you can easily buy a portable 13" 1080p monitor that includes all the parts to hook it up to a computer, a plastic case etc. for less than $200. Heck you can even get a 2560x1600 one for less than $200 taking a quick peek at Amazon.

The economies of scale applies here: E-Ink panels certainly don't have the same scale in term of sales compared to LCD though, and I don't see this changing at the consumer level.

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#66

Post by m-p-3 »

richardanaya wrote: post #36
tarsiel wrote: post #13

Very much on the DIY end, but I made a similar e-ink art piece that shows off the currently playing song on Spotify. I used a 3 colour display to add some flair :) It’s not the easiest to set up yourself - need to generate Spotify API keys and build the unnecessary separate binary for dithering, but here’s the project if anyone is interested! https://github.com/CampbellOwen/NowPlaying

The prices on rapsperry pis that can drive eink are so low the make ArtFrame's prices look way beyond what i could justify.

Try to find a Raspberry Pi lately though, most places are currently either out of stock or selling them at a higher price since the supply can't meet the demand.

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#67

Post by robinsoh »

mdorazio wrote: post #46
robinsoh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eink is just really expensive I am curious what volumes you are buying and which panels and how you're judging whether something is expensive or not. > I believe that it’s heavily patented and only one or two places produces the panels. I would ask that these repeated claims would come with some evidence. The previous times I asked the respondents just did patents.google.com/search?eink and treated that as evidence…

Seems pretty obvious that it's expensive compared to the alternatives . Which in this case are regular LCD panels. Yes I know, the use cases are slightly different, power consumption is much lower, etc. etc. Doesn't matter - most people want to use an e-ink display to... display stuff on a screen, which they can get in the LCD variety for a fraction of the price.

> Seems pretty obvious that it's expensive compared to the alternatives.

That statement is not obvious to me.

You are comparing electrophoretic panels to LCD panels. Both are display technologies. But that's where the similarities end. The volumes are many orders of magnitude different. LCDs would be billions of displays per month. Electrophoretics would be at best 20 million displays a YEAR!

> Which in this case are regular LCD panels. Yes I know, the use cases are slightly different, power consumption is much lower, etc. etc. Doesn't matter - most people want to use an e-ink display to... display stuff on a screen, which they can get in the LCD variety for a fraction of the price.

Yes, you can get coca cola for a fraction of the price of a Chablis wine. But you realize why one costs more than the other right?

I think most people here just aren't taking time to understand the display industry.

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#68

Post by robinsoh »

5560675260 wrote: post #64
robinsoh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eink is just really expensive I am curious what volumes you are buying and which panels and how you're judging whether something is expensive or not. > I believe that it’s heavily patented and only one or two places produces the panels. I would ask that these repeated claims would come with some evidence. The previous times I asked the respondents just did patents.google.com/search?eink and treated that as evidence…

> would you feel my claim was accurate? No, because Coca-cola isn't expensive - it costs about as much soft drinks produced by other companies. Furthermore I don't believe that there are any relevant patents left - its formula is a trade secret. IMO if this was the case with e-ink - we would see much better adoption and prices. Is Windows expensive right now? I don't know how much exactly vendors pay to install it on…

> IMO if this was the case with e-ink - we would see much better adoption and prices.

It is unclear what you mean. I already asked which specific patent needs to be canceled for your belief (hope?) to become true. I hope you don't give the same answer others here gave in the past. Which was: all of them. That just indicates a lack of understanding of the underlying physics of electrophoretics.

> Can the same be said about E ink? It's worse than literal paper for static images, worse than LCD for dynamic content. There is a niche for content that sometimes has to change, like on price tags, but those screens are significantly cheaper than what we're complaining about in this thread.

Yes. But how is that related to what I asked about? OP said it was expensive, and mentioned patents. I asked what OP meant by that. Because expensive based on what calculation? Just relative to LCDs? That's like saying a bottle of Chablis wine is more expensive than a bottle of coke. Sure. I agree 100% with that and I can only hope people understand why. It has nothing to do with patents.

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#69

Post by [deleted] »

Mandatum wrote: post #18
libraryatnight wrote: post #8

This is neat, but it looks like something the HN crowd would build themselves over buying. I know my first impulse was "I could make this..."

eInk/ePaper displays aren't cheap and getting them cheap requires buying pre-loved devices. The only way to drive down costs right now is bulk ordering. Unless your time is worth less than say $25/hr, this is likely much cheaper than building.

[deleted]

Re: ArtFrame: E-paper wireless artwork for your living room

#70

Post by libraryatnight »

Mandatum wrote: post #18
libraryatnight wrote: post #8

This is neat, but it looks like something the HN crowd would build themselves over buying. I know my first impulse was "I could make this..."

eInk/ePaper displays aren't cheap and getting them cheap requires buying pre-loved devices. The only way to drive down costs right now is bulk ordering. Unless your time is worth less than say $25/hr, this is likely much cheaper than building.

I don't really think a person building this would factor wage since it - in my case at least - would be fore fun. That said eink displays are expensive but I feel like one could find one and come in to close to or under the cost of the ArtFrame. https://shopkits.eink.com - has some good options.

Not arguing my aunt would build this, just that a lot of the HN crowd could and often are of the tinkering type to find that sort of project enjoyable :)

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