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The Shaming-Industrial Complex
61–70 of 155 posts
Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
We are now at a stage where a twitter mob would see "men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports" as a bigoted statement. To the vast majority of people there are important differences between men and women, and will now have to awkwardly self-censors their speech. Or they will worry whether they are actually bigoted and attempt to signal that they are not really a bad person by relenting to the group. We…
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Why do you think biological men should be allowed to compete in sports against biological women at a professional level? Is that fair to those women?
We can acknowledge and accept trans people without bulldozing millennia of human culture. This has nothing to do with "speech", free or otherwise.
Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#63The article kinda misses a major point: > Flanagan calls shame accompanied by progressive values “mature shame” I would argue that shaming used to promote your political views is often the most damaging kind of shaming because on top of being the most divisive, it is likely counterproductive, an offputting move that damages your brand and often creates a powerful backlash against it. Now there's some subtlety here. I…
Shame is a blunt tool. It's inconsistent. It has no moral value in and of itself. The funny thing about shame is the mental gymnastics that are gone through to justify who should or shouldn't be subject to it and on what criteria.
The "villain" is whoever happens to be unpopular or undesired. Vulnerability is spun as a vice or saving grace in the interests of the shamer and his agenda. To paraphrase Cardinal Richelieu, it only takes a few words for one to find a reason to hang a man.
Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Why do you think biological men should be allowed to compete in sports against biological women at a professional level? Is that fair to those women? We can acknowledge and accept trans people without bulldozing millennia of human culture. This has nothing to do with "speech", free or otherwise.
And yet, the commenter I replied to had not mentioned trans-people vs biological men, or anything. They just said men vs women and left it that. See my point?
Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation ?!? Legislative bodies used to rely on shame (the opposite of honor) as a means of enforcing unwritten rules. It used to be possible to shame politicians into resigning when they'd crossed a line. “Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?” -- Joe Wel…
Nixon met with Congress members and was told that he would be impeached with certainty, so he resigned the next day. He was decidedly not resigning over shame. Without the pardon from Ford, it’s possible he would be charged and indicted with a felony even. So yeah, there is a whole lot more to him resigning than shame
I'd also like to point out that by resigning Nixon was assured his pension
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/08/10/archives/nixon-to-get-600...
Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
> diversity of thought No one is stopped from having diverse thoughts - you can always think whatever you want. But why do you think you have the right to publicly & globally tweet it without anyone responding to it? Are you looking solely for supportive replies? And zero debate or criticism? The irony is that all the people fighting “cancel culture” with their “diverse” thoughts really seem to mainly just have hot-t…
> And zero debate or criticism? Criticism and responses would be fine. Bloodthirsty attempts at ruining the persons life/career aren't, yet they're extremely common. As others have said, it adds way too much risk to non-anonymous public discourse, where if it happens that something you said, no matter how innocuous, snowballs for whatever reason, you're screwed. So the only reasonable thing to do is just not express…
> Criticism and responses would be fine.
That is always the majority of comments. Just like not all tweeters are being cancelled.
> So the only reasonable thing to do is just not express opinions online.
And yet, here you and I are expressing our opinions and having a discussion.
Every single criticism I’ve heard is about policing the people who point out any problematic opinions. Truly ironic!
> You could "cancel" literally anyone over anything if you got enough traction to start going "viral."
Care to link to any real cases of non-racist/sexist/etc comments that got someone cancelled? Or are you just being facetious?
Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#67> shaming is a national pastime, and yet shameless conduct persists.
Wouldn't that be "shameful conduct"?
> In 2013, when people still nursed high hopes for the salvific effects of the Internet and cancellation was a fate reserved for poorly rated TV shows
People were already being harassed, arrested and prosecuted for saying things governments didn't like on Social media, in 2013 or thereabouts. Prominent example for 2015:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dareen_Tatour
> Now she was a globally known racist.
She is certainly not globally known (and whether she's a racist or not - one can certainly not know based on her tweet).
> Our social fabric has since frayed considerably... our transformation into bloodhounds
I wonder who is "us" for the author of this piece.
Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#68Shame is a powerful moderator of behaviour considered marginal or taboo in society, likely it forms an essential role in group cohesion. However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society, where the mechanisms of shame - the 'calling out' of transgressors, the dogpiling that ensues following a successful call out - are chaotic, following no process or moderation itself. The inevitable result is self c…
It also requires a society to be fairly well-aligned on where the margin lies. In the USA, at least, that is decidedly not the case.
Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#69Shame is a powerful moderator of behaviour considered marginal or taboo in society, likely it forms an essential role in group cohesion. However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society, where the mechanisms of shame - the 'calling out' of transgressors, the dogpiling that ensues following a successful call out - are chaotic, following no process or moderation itself. The inevitable result is self c…
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Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
We are now at a stage where a twitter mob would see "men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports" as a bigoted statement. To the vast majority of people there are important differences between men and women, and will now have to awkwardly self-censors their speech. Or they will worry whether they are actually bigoted and attempt to signal that they are not really a bad person by relenting to the group. We…
You can't. People in San Francisco control big tech, and they've decided the entire internet should reflect their own microcosmic perspective on the world. See the other replies to your comment as an example - they really can't see anything beyond their immediate surroundings.