Earlier quoted context omitted.
> STEM students are subsidized by liberal arts students Can you provide more context for this? How is the cost of teaching a STEM student higher than the cost of a liberal arts student? The classrooms are roughly the same. STEM student labs might be more expensive to manage, but that equipment is/(can be?) funded by research grants.
It is largely anecdotal based on some inquiries made at my school. Different schools will vary- is it a research school? What types of STEM degrees are offered? Etc. Others likely have more concrete insight than I do. One conversation that stuck was the me: Back when I was in school, one of my mandarin teachers wanted to offer a "business mandarin" course outside of the general language program geared towards busines…
I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
61–70 of 1001 posts
Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#62> Cancelling student debt is good if it's tied to fixing the problem going forward, which means not offering it, or having the colleges be the guarantor, or ISAs, or something. What do you tell the upper middle class families that didn't buy a bigger house or pad their investment accounts so that they could help put 3 of their kids through schools? My parents spent at least $200k on undergrad education between me and…
Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#63This is kind of a weird mix of points. Ignoring his political axe-grinding, I think the value of a college degree is increasingly in question for many fields because the price has risen wildly for decades without a corresponding increase in market value. (Except perhaps for elite-institution degrees, which are more about the brand and the network than what people actually learn.) I think we haven't seen at least a pa…
Question: do elite institution degrees confer any addition to market value commensurate with their cost, or do they simply select for people who already have high market value?
Speaking only for STEM, an elite STEM program gives the student access to a bigger variety of upperclassman courses; compare the available course list for a community college vs a large university and the difference is quite noticeable. The better programs also provide access to better equipment and advising; e.g., various University of California campuses have their own on-site chip fabrication labs. If the career trajectory you're planning benefits from those advanced courses, going to the better STEM programs is going to help tremendously. If not, well, they don't but that's hardly the institution's fault; they aren't choosing who to send your resume to, you are.
(As an aside, I use the word "access" very intentionally; educational institutions don't "confer" anything. Students get access to resources and opportunities and they choose which to take. It's entirely possible to do the minimum to fulfill requirements; for example, I chose easy courses to do the minimum fulfill my humanities requirements because it wasn't where my interests lay.)
Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#64This is kind of a weird mix of points. Ignoring his political axe-grinding, I think the value of a college degree is increasingly in question for many fields because the price has risen wildly for decades without a corresponding increase in market value. (Except perhaps for elite-institution degrees, which are more about the brand and the network than what people actually learn.) I think we haven't seen at least a pa…
Question: do elite institution degrees confer any addition to market value commensurate with their cost, or do they simply select for people who already have high market value?
[1] For the curious, it was the notion of comparative advantage, which was counterintuitive for me too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#65I'm not talking about the obvious exceptions like medicine or law (though even that can be done as a conversion rather than an undergrad degree) or anything else where you literally need the paper that says you can do it. I'm also not talking about becoming a researcher, where obvious you need to know a bit of X to become a professor of X. I'm talking about the vast number of degrees that are not job specific. Business, economics, history, literature, and so on with humanities, but also math, chemistry, physics, and biology.
There is no real reason an employer would care what you studied, because as a new graduate your job is to learn the business. Whether you were interested in one thing or another in college doesn't matter much, the main line is between math-tech stuff and not-math-tech stuff. Employers who reckon their work is techie will gravitate towards those graduates, while others will be open to anyone.
All the degree signals is that you somehow gathered yourself and read a bunch of books and solved a bunch of questions. That's somehow supposed to be evidence that you can learn their business.
Of course the problem is there's plenty of people who instead of learning Krebs cycle could just go directly into finance or accounting or any number of jobs without jumping through the hoops. The issue is that college has become a destination for so many smart kids, it's hard to imagine a smart kid who skips it. So absolutely everyone feels they need to go to college, and absolutely every employer thinks they need to hire just college grads.
In terms of helping the economy, it's really not efficient. Everyone has to sit around for three or four years when they really want to be working, and everyone who can't find the money/time to do it is cut out from middle class aspirational jobs.
Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#66This is kind of a weird mix of points. Ignoring his political axe-grinding, I think the value of a college degree is increasingly in question for many fields because the price has risen wildly for decades without a corresponding increase in market value. (Except perhaps for elite-institution degrees, which are more about the brand and the network than what people actually learn.) I think we haven't seen at least a pa…
Question: do elite institution degrees confer any addition to market value commensurate with their cost, or do they simply select for people who already have high market value?
I do think that on top of that, they add value because students can be given more challenging and stimulating coursework. The difference in Math education between a top college and a college with loose entry requirements is staggering - we're talking people doing hard proofs freshman year vs. undergrad seniors taking upper level math courses that don't even have proofs, just computation.
Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Question: do elite institution degrees confer any addition to market value commensurate with their cost, or do they simply select for people who already have high market value?
I'm sure it depends some on the degree. A very sharp friend of mine got an aeronautical engineeering degree from a good state school. After a few years in industry he went back for a brand-name MBA. He said in 2 years of school, he learned exactly one thing that he couldn't have just figured out via general knowledge and a bit of thinking. [1] He said the real value was in the network he built up, people who would so…
Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#68Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#69Sure, if you can ace leetcode like an olympiad, you can become a L7 at FAANG. However, if you are a MBA from San Jose state, you would be working as a financial analyst. However, if you are a Stanford MBA, you would be a SVP.
Top tier firms in PE, VC, IC, and top tier consulting companies still go for elite colleges. Why? That is the path to c-level positions (not leetcode). Same thing for big law. Same thing goes for Washington consensus (the cesspool of Beltway), where pedigree matters.
Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears
#70> Cancelling student debt is good if it's tied to fixing the problem going forward, which means not offering it, or having the colleges be the guarantor, or ISAs, or something. What do you tell the upper middle class families that didn't buy a bigger house or pad their investment accounts so that they could help put 3 of their kids through schools? My parents spent at least $200k on undergrad education between me and…
- daycare is on average around $2k per month per child where I live.
- outside of tech, almost no companies pay for parental leave. At most, they are obligated to hold your position, but no pay is required. This is especially true if you or your spouse work in the healthcare field. It’s absolutely mind blowing how poorly employees are treated by their employers in the healthcare industry.
- childcare tax credits are an absolute joke. From the $32k in childcare I paid for last year, I got a $1,600 credit…
- once you have kids, your health insurance costs will be astronomical unless you’re lucky enough to work at a company that provides good insurance. In my situation, I run a small tech company where we don’t provide HC insurance (too costly atm). My wife works in healthcare. Our insurance is beyond a joke. Thousands per month with a $20k deductible. It’s hell.
- once your kids are in school they’re taught very little useful skills. It’s mostly an exercise in obedience and conformist thinking.
- once your child graduates high school they have the option to either take out hundreds of thousand of dollars in federally backed loans if they’re lucky enough to have parents that don’t make enough money. If they have middle class parents they’ll have to rely on even worse loans from private lenders.
So would I expect the US to punish middle class parents that foot the bill for their child’s college? Yes. The US hates the middle class, as much as they hate children.