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Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

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Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#61
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really worry about a startup taking a massive bet on their own custom hardware now in 2022. The world was much, much different in December 2019 when Oxide started than it is now. Let's hope the investment cash keeps flowing and the hardware gets to folks that purchased it.

Right now is, in fact, the best time to be betting on custom hardware. Moore's Law has been dead for a while. Getting "performance" now requires design and architecture again rather than just sitting back for 18 months and letting Moore's Law kill your competitor. The big problem right now is that custom chip hardware is still too stupidly expensive because of EDA software. Fab runs are sub $50K, but EDA software is…

Do you really need proprietary EDA tools to get started on designing custom chips? Higher-level design languages like Chisel are showing a lot of potential right now, with full CPU cores being designed entirely in such languages. Of course EDA will be needed once the high-level design has to be ported to any specific hardware-fabbing process, but that step should still be relatively simple since most potential defects in the high-level design will have been shaken out by then.

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#62
post #6

Is it weird that I'm insanely excited about Oxide as a product, even though I have absolutely no need or use case for it?

I'm a huge fanboy of Oxide, hope they succeed, the world needs more of this.

I'm very sad about what Silicon Valley has become. We speak of "tech companies" but they mostly no longer exist. What are the big names in Silicon Valley now? Advertising companies, for the most part. A movie company. Online shopping. Social whatevers. None of these companies sell tech products, they are not tech companies. Sure, they use tech internally but so do law offices and supermarkets, those aren't tech companies either.

I miss the Silicon Valley of actual tech companies. Sun, SGI, HP (the actual tech HP of back then), etc. Apple survives, but focused on consumer-level stuff which I don't find interesting. Oracle is around, but they were always more of a lawyer shop than a tech company. Real hardcode tech companies, do any exist anymore?

Oxide is such fresh air, exciting!

Every week or so I'm about to send an application, I really want to work there. My partner would kill me though, so I haven't. (They have a flat pay scale that, when living in Silicon Valley, would make it very difficult to support a family.. so I'm stuck cheering from the sidelines.)

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#63
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now is, in fact, the best time to be betting on custom hardware. Moore's Law has been dead for a while. Getting "performance" now requires design and architecture again rather than just sitting back for 18 months and letting Moore's Law kill your competitor. The big problem right now is that custom chip hardware is still too stupidly expensive because of EDA software. Fab runs are sub $50K, but EDA software is…

Do you really need proprietary EDA tools to get started on designing custom chips? Higher-level design languages like Chisel are showing a lot of potential right now, with full CPU cores being designed entirely in such languages. Of course EDA will be needed once the high-level design has to be ported to any specific hardware-fabbing process, but that step should still be relatively simple since most potential defect…

> Do you really need proprietary EDA tools to get started on designing custom chips?

Yes, actually, you do.

The "interesting" bits in chip design aren't the digital parts--the interesting bits are all analog.

A RISC core is an undergraduate exercise in digital design and synthesis in any HDL--even just straight Verilog or VHDL. It's a boring exercise for anyone with a bit of industry experience as we have infinite and cheap digital transistors. (This is part of the reason I regard RISC-V as a bit interesting but not that exciting. It's fine, but the "RISC" part isn't where we needed innovation and standardization--we needed that in the peripherals.)

However, the interfaces are where things break down. Most communication is now wireless (WiFi, BLE, NB-IoT) and that's all RF (radio frequency) analog. Interfacing generally requires analog to digital systems (ADCs and DACs) and those are, obviously, analog. Even high-speed serial stuff requires signal integrity and termination systems--all of that requires parasitic extraction for modeling--yet more analog. And MEMS are even worse as they require mechanical modeling inside your analog simulation.

If your system needs to run on a coin cell battery, that's genuinely low power and you are optimizing even the digital bits in the analog domain in order to cut your energy consumption. This means that nominally "digital" blocks like clocks and clock trees now become tradeoffs in the analog space. How does your debugging unit work when the chip is in sleep?--most vendors just punt and turn the chip completely on when debugging but that screws up your ability to take power measurements. And many of your purely digital blocks now have "power on/power off" behavior that you need to model when your chip switches from active to sleep to hibernate.

All this is why I roll my eyes every time some group implements "design initiatives" for "digital" VLSI design--"digital" VLSI is "mostly solved" and has been for years (what people behind these initiatives are really complaining about is that good VLSI designers are expensive--not that digital VLSI design is difficult). The key point is analog design (even and especially for high performance digital) with simulation modeling along with parasitic extraction being the blockers. Until one of these "design initiatives" attacks the analog parasitic extraction and modeling, they're just hot air. (Of course, you can turn that statement around and say that someone attacking analog parasitic extraction means they are VERY serious and VERY interesting.)

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#64

I use vm-bhyve on FreeBSD current. The little bit of propolis described in the post reminds me of it a bit, but in rust (with a service/api interface) instead of just cli and shell. Sounds neat! I wonder how hard it would be to port to FreeBSD.

There's some changes they have made to bhyve that would need to get ported to FreeBSD first.

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#65
post #60
post #22

Love what they are doing. And as a cloud and on-prem supporter I get what they are trying to accomplish. If you haven't heard you should check out their podcast, "On the Metal [0]" It's a truly a gift especially if you are an elder millenial. [0] https://oxide.computer/podcasts

The podcast is awesome. Wish they would continue with more episodes!

They've been doing Twitter Spaces for several months now, with recordings and show notes here: https://github.com/oxidecomputer/twitter-spaces Disclosure: I was the main speaker on one of their spaces.

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#66
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really need proprietary EDA tools to get started on designing custom chips? Higher-level design languages like Chisel are showing a lot of potential right now, with full CPU cores being designed entirely in such languages. Of course EDA will be needed once the high-level design has to be ported to any specific hardware-fabbing process, but that step should still be relatively simple since most potential defect…

> Do you really need proprietary EDA tools to get started on designing custom chips? Yes, actually, you do. The "interesting" bits in chip design aren't the digital parts--the interesting bits are all analog. A RISC core is an undergraduate exercise in digital design and synthesis in any HDL--even just straight Verilog or VHDL. It's a boring exercise for anyone with a bit of industry experience as we have infinite an…

> It's a boring exercise for anyone with a bit of industry experience as we have infinite and cheap digital transistors.

Having "infinite and cheap" transistors is what makes hardware design not boring. It means designs in the digital domain are now just as complex as the largest software systems we work with, while still being mission-critical for obvious reasons (if the floating point division unit you etched into your latest batch of chips is buggy and getting totally wrong results, you can't exactly ship a software bugfix to billions of chips in the field). This is exactly where we would expect shifting to higher-level languages to be quite worthwhile. Simple RISC cores are neither here nor there; practical multicore, superscalar, vector, DSP, AI etc. etc. is going to be a lot more complex than that.

Complicated analog stuff can hopefully be abstracted out as self-contained modules shipped as 'IP blocks', including the ADC and DAC components.

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all; they're building a cool tech stack, but the only thing they sell is super expensive hardware that no individual - and not even that many businesses! - is likely to be able to afford.

So, the only thing really inherent about our price point is that we're selling compute by the rack: as it turns out, a whole rack of server-class CPUs (and its accompanying DRAM, flash, NICs, and switching ASICs) is pretty expensive! But this doesn't mean that it's a luxury good: especially because customers won't need to buy software separately (as one does now for hypervisor, control plane, storage software, etc.),…

Where does this leave companies that would like to take advantage of fully integrated software and hardware (yes, intentionally referring to your old project at Sun), but don't need a full rack's worth of computing power (and maybe never will), and don't have the in-house skills to roll their own? Or do you think that what you're selling really only has significant benefits at a large scale?

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#68
I'm currently reading up on this, but I'm struggling to match a use case.

It's not Openstack. It's not VMware. It's not kubernetes. It's not proxmox. It's not Xen. It's not Anthos. It's not GCDE. It's not Outposts.

So who and what is it for? Where is the use case that none of these other products fit the bill?

Especially for an on premise use case.

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#69

I'm currently reading up on this, but I'm struggling to match a use case. It's not Openstack. It's not VMware. It's not kubernetes. It's not proxmox. It's not Xen. It's not Anthos. It's not GCDE. It's not Outposts. So who and what is it for? Where is the use case that none of these other products fit the bill? Especially for an on premise use case.

This article is about technical details of the product that aren't user-facing.

The business is fairly straightforward: we sell computers, a rack at a time. You as a customer can buy a rack, and put it in your data center. The rack offers an in-browser management console, built on top of an API you can use too. You use these tools to set up virtual machines. You can then use those VMs however you want. You get the cloud deployment model but with the "I buy the servers" ownership model.

There's a few different advantages depending on how you want to look at it.

Starting from a rack as the smallest unit rather than 1U brings a lot of advantages, but there aren't really vendors currently selling these sorts of things, instead "the hyperscalers" have internal teams building stuff like this. There are a lot of organizations who want hyperscale style servers but aren't going to start a division to begin making them themselves.

Another advantage is that everything is designed to work with the rest of it: you (or the OEM you're buying from) are not cobbling together a bunch of hardware, firmware, and software solutions from disparate vendors and hoping the whole thing works. Think "Apple," or "Sun," rather than "IBM PC Compatible." This is easier for users, as well as allows us to build systems we believe are more reliable.

There's also smaller things, like "as much as possible everything is open source/free software," which matters to some folks (and allows for interesting things like the above blog post to happen!) and is less important to others.

Re: Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello

#70

I'm currently reading up on this, but I'm struggling to match a use case. It's not Openstack. It's not VMware. It's not kubernetes. It's not proxmox. It's not Xen. It's not Anthos. It's not GCDE. It's not Outposts. So who and what is it for? Where is the use case that none of these other products fit the bill? Especially for an on premise use case.

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