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A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

thecritic.co.uk

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Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#61

Post by coldtea »

quanto wrote: post #51
mbg721 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely this is a Ship of Theseus situation, isn't it? There may have been little change from year to year, but a red-blooded Jupiter-Optimus-Maximus-fearing classical Roman citizen transplanted into the future would have been horrified at various moments, first when the Republic became an Empire, again when Christianity took over, when the Empire was split in the Tetrarchy, and when it became apparent that the Greek-…

> I think the traditional break when the West finally gave up is as good as any. Except that the Greek-speaking part was as Roman as the Latin-speaking part in culture, heritage, bureaucracy, governance, and self-identity. The later Western European historians' designation of the East as "Byzantine" (read: not "real" Romans) is much motivated by the West Europe's desire to see themselves as intellectual descendants o…

>Except that the Greek-speaking part was as Roman as the Latin-speaking part in culture, heritage, bureaucracy, governance, and self-identity.

Not that much. It was roman in leadership and had the roman legal structures, but it was always the area of prior Greece and the Hellenistic kindgoms, which had millenia of history and culture all of its own (to the point of the Roman's saying that when they conquered it millitarily, it conquered them culturally).

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#62

Post by kanzenryu2 »

yawgmoth wrote: post #23
delsarto wrote: post #20

If, like me, your knowledge of Constantinople is limited to the They Might Be Giants song, an excellent light-ish read (as much as 100s of years of Byzantine, as in the ridiculously complex, history can be) is Ghost Empire by Richard Fidler https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Empire_(book)

The History of Byzantium podcast is both accessible and well done- https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/

So... many... assassinations

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#63

Post by jaclaz »

qiskit wrote: post #24
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

> helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it. The italian renaissance started in the 14th century for sure and maybe even in 13th century depending on who you ask. Though the exact date can be disputed, nobody disputes the fact that it started long before the fall of the byzantine empire in the mid 15th century. And the italian renaissance had more to do with direct trade opening up between europe and china…

The so-called pax mongolica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Mongolica

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#64

Post by asimpletune »

rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #42
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

I think it's a little difficult to say objectively what the truth is, but I'm here in Istanbul now and it doesn't really seem that the Turks think of themselves as hostile occupiers. I would say the vibe in the city and attitude among the Turks is more spiritual successors of Byzantium, rather than an occupying force.

I think the fact that they conquered Byzantium is perceived more as legitimizing their rule, since the Romans at that point were weak enough to fall. In any case, it's more symbolic than anything, because the Ottomans had already taken most of the important stuff before and really just needed the city for the straight.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#65

Post by barrkel »

rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #42
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

A big clue that a culture shift has occurred is when the language changes. It isn't total, but it's big. If Istanbul residents spoke some Romance language, that case would be more convincing.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#66

Post by m_eiman »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #57
rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the same arguments could be applied to the USA

Can you imagine a USA where half spoke Spanish, half English and less than 1% both?

I can image in a USA where the population is divided in half, each half with so widely different world views that they might as well be speaking different languages…

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#67

Post by asimpletune »

bedobi wrote: post #35
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

It's kind of a fantasy but I like to think Rome never truly disappeared. (and I don't mean that necessarily in an good or nostalgic way) A lot of what happens in Brazil, the US etc today is as if lifted straight out of the late republic. What's going on in Ukraine too is also history repeating itself. The examples are countless. Many of us, especially on a western forum like this, in many ways are Romans.

One could argue that "latino" is a person descending from Rome. This would include many Latin Americans, Italians, Spaniards, etc... even English.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#68

Post by asimpletune »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #59
bodhiandphysics wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homer is an exception to this! There are almost a thousand Homeric manuscripts. There are 7 Plato manuscripts. Aristotle was significantly more popular, with almost 300 manuscripts, almost all from the west, and due to Byzantine originals starting in the 11th century

Do these Homeric manuscripts all come the Thrasyllus edition in Alexandria? It’s crazy that every single one of Plato’s books survived.

I think Plato had a bunch of manuscripts that weren't designed to be public facing that don't exist today. It was like he had stuff for the public, and then he had stuff only for his students. I imagine the tone and narrative voice would have been much different, and that he would have expected much more from his readers in these other works.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#69

Post by antman »

asimpletune wrote: post #64
rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

I think it's a little difficult to say objectively what the truth is, but I'm here in Istanbul now and it doesn't really seem that the Turks think of themselves as hostile occupiers. I would say the vibe in the city and attitude among the Turks is more spiritual successors of Byzantium, rather than an occupying force. I think the fact that they conquered Byzantium is perceived more as legitimizing their rule, since t…

They are not hostile occupiers any more,Istanbul has been Ottoman for many centuries.

But the city was called Constantinople. Istanbul in Greek phonetics means "We are in the city” and was renamed after the capture. It is Ottoman, not part of the Byzantine tradition but Ottomans promoted a continuity narrative without any of the preexisting thousand year old Greek Christian traditions. Those populations had to be forcibly removed or changed faith up until the 1950’s.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#70

Post by flohofwoe »

nec4b wrote: post #55
rnmwfQ3f wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ottoman Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire, not the end of it. If you were a Greek living in the Byzantine Empire – or as they described themselves, a Roman living in the Roman Empire – the Ottomans were just the new Roman Emperors. The Roman bureaucracy, civil institutions, and daily life changed very little. People don't normally acknowledge it because both the Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Emp…

By that logic the Italians today are still living in a western Roman Empire.

Well, the Holy Roman Empire existed into the early 19th century, so the idea isn't entirely absurd ;)
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