Live data from Hacker News

The sunny side of firing someone

madned.substack.com

61–70 of 113 posts

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#61
post #22

Back when I was a junior developer I used to think tech companies -even the smallest ones- generally had some kind of reasonably accurate performance review process, where engineers who were underperforming for a while were eventually weeded out. In my experience ever since, that's simply not true. There are "teflon engineers" out there who can get virtually nothing done and make one mistake after another, and get aw…

Smart, gets things done on time, pleasant to work with. Pick any two and you’ll do fine. Neil Gaiman’s commencement speech. I think if two are lacking for a while you get fired…

> Smart...pleasant to work with

Does anyone have tips for having high code standards, but still pleasant to work with? I got feedback that I have high standards, but I also go to the effort of explaining why I think an approach is better in code reviews and don't talk down to people in code reviews (and got feedback saying this), but I'm not sure it's enough.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#62
On the one hand, I've previously suggested that managers should be quicker to fire underperforming workers, but on the other hand, it's absolutely true that some disappointments from workers are because of my own lapses in communication. When I wrote about one-on-one meetings, some people suggested to me that one-on-one meetings allow a manager to tell one worker one story but tell another worker a completely different set of facts, and the end result is that workers ended up feeling like they've been lied to. So when I recently wrote about this, I included this story, which I think shows both sides of the issue.

There are times when workers feel they’ve been lied to when they have simply misread or misheard some communication from their manager. This is an actual communication that I recently had with a freelancer I was working with, putting together some preliminary numbers for a marketing campaign:

Me: About Task 3, can you wrap this up by Thursday or Friday?

Them: I’m busy on Thursday, but I can get to Task 3 on Friday or Saturday.

Me: Are you sure you can’t get this done on Friday?

Them: I don’t know. I’ve got some things scheduled for the afternoon on Friday. I’m not sure how long that might go into the evening. But I can get it to you by Saturday afternoon, for sure.

Me: Look, this doesn’t have to be perfect. Don’t go overboard. Just put in what time you can on Thursday and Friday. In this case speed is more important than quality. Whatever you can do is fine.

Around 9 PM on Friday I had not heard from them, so I wrote to them again:

Me: Hey, can you please send me whatever you’ve got regarding Task 3?

Them: I told you, I can get it to you by Saturday afternoon.

Me: I told you the deadline was Friday.

Them: You never said the deadline was Friday.

Me: What I said was, whatever you have by this point, Friday night, is fine. I think I said that speed is more important than quality.

Them: Yeah, but you never said that Friday was the deadline.

Me: Okay, that’s fine, but please send me what you have.

They sent over what they’d done so far, and it was fine. In this case, we were both a little bit in the wrong, in that neither of us made explicit what the deadline was. I thought I’d been reasonably clear that by Friday night they should just send me whatever they had, but they felt that I’d authorized them to keep going until Saturday. It’s important to be very clear about expectations, otherwise workers hear what they want to hear and then they sometimes feel that you lied to them.

In this case, I simply failed to make 100% explicit that the deadline was Friday night. If I had invested a little more time into the communication, I probably would have made clear what my expectations were.

I've previously suggested that larger, stable firms should do more to offer some kind of apprenticeships to novice tech workers. But in small startups, when the whole team is just 4 of 5 people, often you need for everyone on that team to be perfect, so if someone on that team isn't perfect, you need to be fast to fire people. This was one of the main conclusions that I put in my book "How To Destroy A Tech Startup In Three Easy Steps."

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#63

> "This is an extremely bad thing for the people who have to leave, who in most cases do not even get much warning that it will happen." If this is the culture then the person being cut loose is the winner. Not much warning is bad management / leadership.

This is done because when employees are let go they could become potentially hostile to the company. That's why they don't inform people beforehand of the firing. What should absolutely be done is inform him of the exact performance problem and steps to improve. An actual well intended PIP and not just a way to throw someone out.

I guess he means that they didn’t have any negative feedback until then.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#64

I think the article misses the case that the manager is just an unprofessional idiot and fires someone (or usually more than one) just because he doesn’t like them. I have seen in the past. They fired promising engineers out of the blue (no negative feedback until then) and for completely random and unprofessional reasons given, e.g. we think you don’t like us.

Even if the manager is unprofessional idiot, the manager can't fire somebody without working with other people at the company, such as their boss, HR, and probably the Finance department. They can certainly drive the decision, but they need the buy in of others too.

I was referring to small companies and startups where there aren’t such things and founding engineers are like gods within the company and can have such ‘professional’ attitude.

I have seen it happening.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#65

Great article. Firing someone is hard. Even for poor performance it can be really hard, like heart-pounding fight-or-flight anxiety-ridden hard. It’s worst when the person who is doing badly at their job is a nice, well-liked person like “Bob” in this article. But it helps when you realize everyone involved in that situation (a person is dragging the team down) is miserable, and the misery only ends when that person…

>> operating in a low-trust environment

As someone that has performed exceptionally well in high-trust environments, and essentially not performed in a no-trust environment I can confirm that the latter is both miserable and terrifying.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart, gets things done on time, pleasant to work with. Pick any two and you’ll do fine. Neil Gaiman’s commencement speech. I think if two are lacking for a while you get fired…

> Smart...pleasant to work with Does anyone have tips for having high code standards, but still pleasant to work with? I got feedback that I have high standards, but I also go to the effort of explaining why I think an approach is better in code reviews and don't talk down to people in code reviews (and got feedback saying this), but I'm not sure it's enough.

Comment on the code review but follow up privately and offer to pair.

It’s extra work but it shows the contributor that you’re not just out to poke holes and make extra work, it shows you actually care about their development and progression as an engineer

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart, gets things done on time, pleasant to work with. Pick any two and you’ll do fine. Neil Gaiman’s commencement speech. I think if two are lacking for a while you get fired…

> Smart...pleasant to work with Does anyone have tips for having high code standards, but still pleasant to work with? I got feedback that I have high standards, but I also go to the effort of explaining why I think an approach is better in code reviews and don't talk down to people in code reviews (and got feedback saying this), but I'm not sure it's enough.

Pick your battles. Try to identify cases where at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if the code is not "the best TM".

Also don't hesitate to tag your comments as "nitpicks".

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#68
post #22

Back when I was a junior developer I used to think tech companies -even the smallest ones- generally had some kind of reasonably accurate performance review process, where engineers who were underperforming for a while were eventually weeded out. In my experience ever since, that's simply not true. There are "teflon engineers" out there who can get virtually nothing done and make one mistake after another, and get aw…

Companies rarely fire tenured staff except for layoffs. Often this is due to issues such as

- Tenured staff have a track record, if they are suddenly under-performing it seems more likely that their manager is to blame. Rather than a lack of ability.

- Tenured staff have institutional knowledge which can be hard to estimate and replace, the fact that a bad engineer still knows why something was done a certain way and can help others is sometimes sufficient.

- Tenured staff sometimes have implicit responsibilities that are unclear to new hires. An engineer with 10 years in the company might spend almost all of their time doing some form of product/tech leadership. The rare times they write code it may be deficient in some manner or another.

- Tenured staff know how to read the tea leaves. The fact that they are still with the company likely indicates that they know how to avoid situations where they will get let go. Sometimes this is as simple as hopping on maintenance work for profitable systems.

On the other hand, a new engineer doing their first project may actually not have the skills to get the project done. Or, more likely they were hired for new initiatives that leadership is fundamentally skeptical of.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#69

I have been a manager and I've realized that a huge portion of it is a communication problem. Not all of it but a big portion of it and not many managers realize this. When I was a new manager I noticed an employee that would just get everything wrong and do things with a low amount of quality. Turns out the problem was with me. As a new manager I failed to communicate and define objectives clearly. I simply assumed…

That’s fantastic introspection, but to give another anecdotal piece of data: I spent 6 months stressing about how to keep iterating communication and fit with an underperformer, and he never managed to contribute (I was the second of four managers he worked with over 3 years).

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#70
post #41

I was in "position 3" about a year-and-a-half ago. I got over the shame / self-worth issues, but honestly there were a couple of betrayal-of-friendship issues from people I considered pretty close friends where it came out that what they were saying to management and each other wasn't what they were saying to me. I even asked on a couple occasions to sit down and tell me what I could do better... Got a huge pay incre…

The bittersweet aspect of this scenario in my experience, is that time heals some wounds only. With time, the friendship may survive. But it’ll never be the same of course. Neither party will want to revisit the topic of the exit from the organization, because it makes them both uncomfortable. On the sad side, there’s no chance of closure. But on the bright side, your friendship overcame some serious challenges, whic…

The guys never reached out after the fact, so I haven't spoken to them, which is part of why it makes me sad to think about. I don't lack for friends and other positive things, it's just sad because I really liked these guys.
Post reply on HN