Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's • Hacker News Board

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#61

Post by w-m » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

atlantas wrote: post #13

Kwastie wrote: post #10

This great (mini) YouTube documentary gives some background what lead up to the lawsuit. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4 )

Seconded. That is excellent piece of work; some of the best journalism I've seen in years.

The video makes some good points, but overall it’s very repetitive. Just count how many times the shot of the manual with “call a service technician” is used, always with similar narration, or the one of the finances of the company who make 25% of their revenue with parts and service.

This could have easily been a 5 minute video. Also, it does not offer any explanation why McDonalds is the only customer of the Taylor brand machines with this issue. Burger King is also “an old company”, why doesn’t it apply to them?

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#62

Post by ojosilva » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

tfvlrue wrote: post #26

I've been following this story for a while. When people say the soft serve machine is "broken", they really mean "unavailable to serve ice cream to customers". That could mean something as innocuous as performing a pasteurization cycle during the day (because it failed to run at night for some reason, perhaps the machine's clock is set wrong). It could also mean there is a physical problem with some part of the machi…

> the machine has determined it's unsafe to serve the contents

Wouldn't that mean, though, that the Kytch device could be working around the issue in detriment of the patron's, or "end user", safety?

The franchisees certainly were very happy with Kytch's reduction in their maintenance and downtime cost, caused by very temperamental, ill-designed machines. Franchisee's are clearly victims of a tightly controlled McD ecosystem (sounds so Apple...). But if the machine is operating in a way that could harm users, even if harmful workarounds is just 1 or 2 out of 30 other harmless issues Kytch monitors, fixes or clarifies, still, it would absolutely justify the take down!

Imagine a batch of people who suddenly get a bacteria from unpasteurized ice cream from a Kytch-hacked McD machine. How could McD justify knowing their franchisee's were installing a device that could put their patrons in risk of eating a spoiled dairy products? It's a backdoor for a health crisis, a PR nightmare and endless lawsuits. Even if it doesn't know for sure the device can be blamed, the liability is there.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#63

Post by wronglebowski » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

tfvlrue wrote: post #26

I've been following this story for a while. When people say the soft serve machine is "broken", they really mean "unavailable to serve ice cream to customers". That could mean something as innocuous as performing a pasteurization cycle during the day (because it failed to run at night for some reason, perhaps the machine's clock is set wrong). It could also mean there is a physical problem with some part of the machi…

I've commented on this previously as I worked as a jack of all trades for a McDonald's franchisee for years.

The machines tanks and shaving cores must be disassembled and cleaned every two weeks. They have a very intelligent series of sensors and internal mechanisms that make it impossible to defeat or cheat.

This is not a low skilled job. I'd say it would be easier to change your cars oil than complete this. There's multiple gaskets and seals which need to be rotated quarterly in a tune up kit. While we were hiring at minimum wage the shake machine trained people were making 15$. I can only imagine what they're making now.

I don't find the "cryptic messages" issue to be valid. New machines had new systems and codes, it wasn't malicious. Everyone had access to the manual and the Taylor provider in my region did some phone troubleshooting free of charge to prevent service calls. They even did free annual trainings.

Mechanically older machines can have issues, and some franchisees can be stubborn about replacing them. However I believe the vast majority of the time the issue is the machine not being cleaned.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#64

Post by ansible » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #33

kmeisthax wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent post appears to be alleging that McDonalds - or their franchisees - only serve ice cream purely to starve competitors out of the fast food market, and then disconnects or damages those machines in order to get out of having to actually sell that ice cream. Personally, I don't think that holds water. Everyone involved in this drama wants ice cream in the stores. It's not like McDonalds corporate has some Jobsia…

The machines frequently require technicians to come out and work on them, to the tune of several hundred dollars per hour, which the franchisee must pay. They are not permitted to get a less tempermental machine or use independent technicians. It's a cost problem.

You would think that the McDonalds franchise owners would push back on McDonalds corporate about this issue. They would rightly be complaining that they are losing revenue because the Taylor ice cream machine has low reliability.

Even one service call per month is a significant cost to a low-margin business like a quick-serve restaurant.

It is quite possible there is some hinky corporate politics and such within McDonalds corporate that is preventing improvement here.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#65

Post by StillBored » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

mod wrote: post #51

tfvlrue wrote: post #26

I've been following this story for a while. When people say the soft serve machine is "broken", they really mean "unavailable to serve ice cream to customers". That could mean something as innocuous as performing a pasteurization cycle during the day (because it failed to run at night for some reason, perhaps the machine's clock is set wrong). It could also mean there is a physical problem with some part of the machi…

Honestly, in my area they usually say the machine is "down." It's always down.

The one near my house removed it from their menu due to menu simplification during the pandemic, and despite bringing the menu back, not to long after, the ice cream products never returned. Its just missing from the menu, and they tell you they don't sell ice cream.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#66

Post by TedDoesntTalk » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

wronglebowski wrote: post #63

tfvlrue wrote: post #26

I've been following this story for a while. When people say the soft serve machine is "broken", they really mean "unavailable to serve ice cream to customers". That could mean something as innocuous as performing a pasteurization cycle during the day (because it failed to run at night for some reason, perhaps the machine's clock is set wrong). It could also mean there is a physical problem with some part of the machi…

I've commented on this previously as I worked as a jack of all trades for a McDonald's franchisee for years. The machines tanks and shaving cores must be disassembled and cleaned every two weeks. They have a very intelligent series of sensors and internal mechanisms that make it impossible to defeat or cheat. This is not a low skilled job. I'd say it would be easier to change your cars oil than complete this. There's…

Why are these machines so complicated? I thought you just need a few ingredients to make ice cream?

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#67

Post by ansible » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:05 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #60

sircastor wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the critical relationship here to understand is that it's 3 parties: McDonald's corporation, A McDonald's Franchisee, and Taylor. MCD Corp dictates franchisees must use this machine, which is very unforgiving in it's offline modes the machine may only be fixed by Taylor. McDonald's isn't losing the business, the franchisee is, and they are supposedly getting a kickback of some sort from Taylor. The party that…

If a kickback exists, that makes sense. But wouldn't the kickback have to be quite high to be worth the risk that McDonalds is opening themselves up to? I haven't looked at the Taylor financials, but the service contracts are supposedly 25% of their business, so a kickback is some % of that... but I'm having trouble seeing how it is worth the risk to McDonalds. Which is why I think it has more to do with competition,…

It depends on how the kickback is routed.

General franchisee revenue goes in a big bucket allocated across the entire corporation. A specific kickback might be going into one guy's pocket... If that one guy has sufficient political clout within the corporation, it could cause the present situation.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#68

Post by throwawayboise » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:08 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #56

I really don't understand how McDonald's board and leadership has let this situation happen and continue. These ice cream machines are the printer cartridges of McDonald's. Pointless DRM and obfuscation designed to maximize authorized call outs (with associated costs). Now you can argue taht McDonalds gets a cut of that (which may or may not be true; I just don't know) but all of this comes at the cost of customer ex…

Yeah I don't get it either, for the same reasons. All I can think of is... I worked for McDonalds back in the 1980s. They had soft serve and milkshake machines then, but they were simpler. They almost never broke down. I do not recall any breakdowns in fact. The machines did not have an automatic pasturization/sanitize cycle. They had to be taken apart, cleaned and sanitized every night after closing, and then put back together the next morning. That took an extra person on the closing staff just to clean the machines, and another person the next morning to set them back up. Roughly two hours of labor a day, every day, to do those tasks. An experienced person could do it faster, but that's a ballpark.

So McDonald's was betting on the labor savings offsetting the costs of the newer, more complicated and less reliable machines. Overall that may be working out on paper, but the perception of soft-serve being "always broken" is something I am surprised that McDonald's tolerates.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#69

Post by tfvlrue » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

ojosilva wrote: post #62

tfvlrue wrote: post #26

I've been following this story for a while. When people say the soft serve machine is "broken", they really mean "unavailable to serve ice cream to customers". That could mean something as innocuous as performing a pasteurization cycle during the day (because it failed to run at night for some reason, perhaps the machine's clock is set wrong). It could also mean there is a physical problem with some part of the machi…

> the machine has determined it's unsafe to serve the contents Wouldn't that mean, though, that the Kytch device could be working around the issue in detriment of the patron's, or "end user", safety? The franchisees certainly were very happy with Kytch's reduction in their maintenance and downtime cost, caused by very temperamental, ill-designed machines. Franchisee's are clearly victims of a tightly controlled McD e…

I don't have any first-hand knowledge of what the Kytch device did. But nothing I've read about it ever gave me the impression that it was overriding lockouts. It was intended as a remote monitoring device and troubleshooting tool. For example, instead of an employee having to read a pattern of blinking lights on the machine itself, a franchise owner might receive an email that says "soft serve machine cleaning required" and send somebody to take care of it.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#70

Post by wronglebowski » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #66

wronglebowski wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've commented on this previously as I worked as a jack of all trades for a McDonald's franchisee for years. The machines tanks and shaving cores must be disassembled and cleaned every two weeks. They have a very intelligent series of sensors and internal mechanisms that make it impossible to defeat or cheat. This is not a low skilled job. I'd say it would be easier to change your cars oil than complete this. There's…

Why are these machines so complicated? I thought you just need a few ingredients to make ice cream?

It's optimized for high capacity, high throughput, low planning, production.

Do you sell 1 milkshake or 100 a day? Doesn't matter, the tank holds the mix and freezes it on the fly. Taylor machines can output hundreds of units an hour. Or none.

It's always "fresh", there's waste when you clean the machine but other than that the ice cream you get has only been frozen seconds before being served.

It's highly profitable, when the machine is operating correctly the base food cost is much lower than the other food categories(sandwiches and chicken) but not as good as soda and cookies.