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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

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61–70 of 420 posts

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#61
post #4

> "For now aquaculture is the only available option." Wrong. I've stopped eating octopus. Of course, we can't stop eating every animal, even many that obviously feel distress and emotions, but we really need to draw a line on reducing and making sure that we raise or naturally hunt animals in a humane as possible way. Octopus is one I've taken a line on. Others still weigh on me. "Aquaculture" is being billed as the…

> Of course, we can't stop eating every animal... ... > Why do humans have a complete lack of an ability to say "stop, we're not going to do this anymore". I'm trying to understand how these two statements were separated by only a couple sentences.

Unless you can invent life that doesn't require the consumption of other life, we're stuck with what we have. As far as I understand, humans have always eaten meat, including before fire was discovered. There's a certain biological component for being omnivores.

Second, I am human too, you know. I'm made up of the same bullshit everyone else is. However, at least I try to question what I do and try and stop things, and I'm not hell bent on actively trying to make other humans' or animals' lives miserable. I'm still ashamed at the amount of waste and suffering I've brought by eating certain things or using certain products.

Part of my point is that there are people in key moments that can say "enough is enough" but they don't. Usually because they know someone else won't say that and will just do it themselves. And so it goes.

So my question, the second one you quoted, is somewhat rhetorical. We humans don't really possess the ability to be okay with enough. If we did, things would have been a lot different a long time ago. I'm a little curious about the reason why we don't though. There's something off about us. I think this is what you get when you give apes enough intelligence to build technology and societies but not enough emotional capacity and development to handle the consequences.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#62

I've had several people in my life tell me after more intense studies of octopi they refuse to eat them. While I've seen a couple of documentaries on the subject, I won't profess to know as much, but the essential argument has been that they're extremely intelligent, emotional animals. It's akin to eating a dog or cat (which might be acceptable in some parts of the world, but pretty shunned in the west). It's convinc…

No post body was provided.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#63
post #14

I've had several people in my life tell me after more intense studies of octopi they refuse to eat them. While I've seen a couple of documentaries on the subject, I won't profess to know as much, but the essential argument has been that they're extremely intelligent, emotional animals. It's akin to eating a dog or cat (which might be acceptable in some parts of the world, but pretty shunned in the west). It's convinc…

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

Yeah, this is why I'm a vegetarian. I met a cow.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#64

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

I'm often confused by this as well, it's always been fairly obvious to me that other animals are sentient just like us (why wouldn't they be, their physiology is similar, they're descended from common ancestors). Modern factory farming doesn't sit well with me, but I still fairly comfortably eat higher welfare (free range, from reputable brands) or self-caught/hunted meat. It bewilders me that someone would eat meat…

Predators eat their whole life without wondering where it came from or what it implies about the world. It seems like the base state for every living individual, and is the most natural thing in the world. I think this is an important distinction to make, because if you don't make it you end up expressing contempt for those who don't think more widely rather than admiration for those that do.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#65
post #14

I've had several people in my life tell me after more intense studies of octopi they refuse to eat them. While I've seen a couple of documentaries on the subject, I won't profess to know as much, but the essential argument has been that they're extremely intelligent, emotional animals. It's akin to eating a dog or cat (which might be acceptable in some parts of the world, but pretty shunned in the west). It's convinc…

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

Yes and pigs. It’s surprisingly easy now, fake meat is good enough

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#66

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

Money. Acknowledging that beings have feelings, a sense of self, and a will to live can complicate things. It gets in the way of making money. People in general tend to prioritize profits over people. Not always, but much of the time.

That's why the love of money is the root of all evil.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#67
post #4

> "For now aquaculture is the only available option." Wrong. I've stopped eating octopus. Of course, we can't stop eating every animal, even many that obviously feel distress and emotions, but we really need to draw a line on reducing and making sure that we raise or naturally hunt animals in a humane as possible way. Octopus is one I've taken a line on. Others still weigh on me. "Aquaculture" is being billed as the…

Aquaculture is really a hedge against terrestrial crop failures, and you will be glad we developed this industry today come 50 years of climate change from now.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#68

I've had several people in my life tell me after more intense studies of octopi they refuse to eat them. While I've seen a couple of documentaries on the subject, I won't profess to know as much, but the essential argument has been that they're extremely intelligent, emotional animals. It's akin to eating a dog or cat (which might be acceptable in some parts of the world, but pretty shunned in the west). It's convinc…

Quoted post unavailable.

This person watched a documentary and come to a moral stance so you say "it's not achtually their belief".

So any beliefs you pick up from your surroundings actually belong to the surroundings by your estimation.

Strange way to announce you have no beliefs of your own, but assure you it doesn't apply to everyone.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#69
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commend you for your decision. I want to add that framing my ideas about animal suffering in an elastic way makes it easier for me to make incremental changes. An animal is either alive or dead. Maybe eating vegetarian once a week will save a life down the line. I urge everyone to resist the all-or-nothing approach, especially on such an important aspect of our ethical choices. No one's perfect, not even the vegan…

> I urge everyone to resist the all-or-nothing approach There is no other moral stance where someone could reasonably say this. Veganism is a moral stance the same way as "racism is bad" and "abusing my spouse is bad" is a moral stance. No one would ever say "I'm trying to limit kicking dogs to just Tuesday-Sunday". > vegan straight edge kids on Instagram who sneak a chicken nugget when no one's looking. You're proje…

I understand where you're coming from. I assume you believe one bad thing is preferable to two bad things. It's the trap I was warning against. Degrees instead of absolutes.

Personally, I am vegetarian due to ethical concerns, not dietary or nutritional ones. In my decade+ of being vegetarian, I have discerned the pattern that moral proselytizing is generally offensive to people. I think most intelligent non-vegetarians are more amenable to talking about clearly objective impacts (number of dead animals, environmental impact, nutrition, etc).

I prefer to be able to have a rational conversation when I talk about the topic with someone. Righteous indignation is more usually a thought extinguishing reaction to all involved. And then no one comes away with anything at all.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#70

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

I think it would less a question of maturity and more of acceptance of societal values.

Fundamentally eating meat is a behavior our societies want to preserve; setting exceptions gives some leeway and carve safe spaces, while also making the rule more powerful.

For instance settings pets as off limit make it clearer that non-pets are for consumption. Farmers can spend time and develop attachment to their cows, understand they're not inherently different from dogs or ferrets in intelligence or conscience, but we've made it clear it's ok if they end on our plates. Wherever the line is drawn (conscience ? cuteness ? % of DNA close to us ?) doesn't really matter I think, as long as the impact is not critical to our economy or society.

To go to darker places, it's the same kind of logic used centuries ago between christians and "pagans" ("they have no soul", it's ok to kill/enslave them)

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