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Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

mearsheimer.com

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Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#61

Post by rich_sasha »

Yoofie wrote: post #26
rich_sasha wrote: post #18

Sounds like a useful idiot to me. Russia has been dislocating extremely threatening weaponry right on NATO doorstep and treating it as its holy right, for a long time. The Kaliningrad region is Europe’s most militarised area, with SAM and tactical ballistic weaponry extending over most of Poland and the Baltic’s, quite possibly most of Europe in fact. Russian nuke-capable bombers graze NATO airspaces on an almost dai…

> Russia has been dislocating extremely threatening weaponry right on NATO doorstep and treating it as its holy right, for a long time. You got this exactly backwards. NATO has been expanding towards Russia and is seen as aggressive by Russia. NATO/US "graze" Russian and Chinese airspace aswell - whats your point? This is just military tactics 101. >But Ukraine thinks about joining NATO and Russia has no choice but c…

Yes yes yes. Russia is a peaceful country, just somehow surrounded by festering wars. Ukraine, Georgia, Chechnya, not to forget its brainchild North Korea.

But sure, it’s everyone else’s fault!

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#62

Post by glogla »

wonnage wrote: post #38
mjh2539 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author doesn't care what Ukrainians want, and neither does Russia or the United States for that matter. He's a political realist. I think the author would say that you have the right to self-determination if you actually possess the political capital to have the right to begin with. It is obvious that the Ukrainians do not (whereas the Poles, French, Germans, etc. do).

People are very much missing this point; there is no value judgement here over what "should" be happening. There has always been clear red line; if NATO is attacked, we're starting WWIII. If a non-NATO friendly country is attacked, we'll complain loudly and declare sanctions. Ukraine is not in NATO and we should've behaved accordingly (i.e, not sponsor a coup)

"We" (whoever that is) did not "sponsor a coup". Stop spreading misinformation. What happened was that the Ukrainian people were sick of Russian puppet and kicked him out - at great cost, he murdered a lot of them.

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#63

Post by glogla »

mjh2539 wrote: post #21
AlexandrB wrote: post #13

This kind of analysis ignores what Ukraine and Ukrainians actually want. Western Ukraine, at the very least, is extremely nationalist and anti-Russian. Do they not have the right of self-determination as a sovereign country?

The author doesn't care what Ukrainians want, and neither does Russia or the United States for that matter. He's a political realist. I think the author would say that you have the right to self-determination if you actually possess the political capital to have the right to begin with. It is obvious that the Ukrainians do not (whereas the Poles, French, Germans, etc. do).

What a monstrous attitude.

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#64

Post by majewsky »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #47
dogma1138 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About as much of a stretch that the US or Germany are ruled by Nazis because they have far right nut cases in their armed forces. Ukraine is the only country other than Israel that both its head of state and head of government are Jews.

Oh I know. I've even followed Zelenskiy (his social media is usually entertaining...) since he was elected. I just said there's a basis for it, not that it's true.

> I just said there's a basis for it, not that it's true.

You should have said all of that right away, because now it just sounds like backpedaling.

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#65

Post by Mikeb85 »

majewsky wrote: post #64
Mikeb85 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I know. I've even followed Zelenskiy (his social media is usually entertaining...) since he was elected. I just said there's a basis for it, not that it's true.

> I just said there's a basis for it, not that it's true. You should have said all of that right away, because now it just sounds like backpedaling.

It was literally always in my unedited original post.

"It's a stretch" <- means not true

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#66

Post by scaramanga »

glogla wrote: post #63
mjh2539 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author doesn't care what Ukrainians want, and neither does Russia or the United States for that matter. He's a political realist. I think the author would say that you have the right to self-determination if you actually possess the political capital to have the right to begin with. It is obvious that the Ukrainians do not (whereas the Poles, French, Germans, etc. do).

What a monstrous attitude.

Luckily it is, essentialy, the basis of customary international law, otherwise the entire world would disintegrate in to ethnic violence until we ended up with perfectly aligned ethno-states rather than the borders we have now, the majority of which are in place as the relics of failed empires.

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#67

Post by scaramanga »

melony wrote: post #46

A response by other IR theorists: https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Mosco... HN really don’t like IR and geopolitics. Almost all the other IR centric views on other threads have been downvoted or flagged.

I think that there are a great many people who don't like realism when it interferes with their ability to enjoy sanctimoniously condemning the crimes of other states.

When their own state is the one attacking defenceless countries, the precepts of realism are their last line of defence to justify either their enthusiastic support, or their tacit consent.

When my country was destroying Libya, Iraq, and Afhanistan, I found that even those with no education in IR were able to spontaneously invent the precepts of realist theory without needing to read it in a textbook: the world is lawless and anarchic, Saddam is a baddy, if we don't stop him then nobody else will.

I try to be sympathetic to it though. When you've lived through enough of these wars (in the aggressor societies) you just get used to grimly observing how people react and I suppose it must build up a sense of righteous indignation and now here is a chance to safely vent it all without any consequences.

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#68

Post by scaramanga »

blix wrote: post #58
melony wrote: post #46

A response by other IR theorists: https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Mosco... HN really don’t like IR and geopolitics. Almost all the other IR centric views on other threads have been downvoted or flagged.

Thanks for posting this. I came away from those criticism thinking Mearsheimer's argument hadn't taken much damage, though I'm still not sure I agree. It is interesting that even the realist author doesn't frame NATO/EU expansion in the context of empire, but of liberal idealism. It's a shame there isn't more IR discussion here. I'm actually pretty surprised by the low quality of the discourse.

Ditto. Have you checked out caspian report on youtube? I find him to be pretty biassed, but at least he's intelligible and fact-based on the actual economics and geostrategic stuff..

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#69

Post by scaramanga »

dogma1138 wrote: post #42
Mikeb85 wrote: post #36

Imagine how different the world would be if the west allowed Putin to join NATO like he wanted... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s...

Putin never actually wanted to join NATO, some of his demands were that as Russia joins there is no more need for any US presence in Europe as well as he wanted Russia to be exempt from rule of law and the democracy requirements that NATO has.

Wait... Isn't Italy in NATO?

Re: Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West's Fault (2014) [pdf]

#70

Post by taylodl »

The crux of the argument is since the West is expanding NATO then it's the West's fault. Excuse me - what does national sovereignty mean? If the Ukraine desires to join NATO and NATO desires to have the Ukraine join then that's the Ukraine's prerogative as a sovereign nation. It's also Russia's prerogative to invade a sovereign nation, but they should fully expect to pay a price for that - up to and including all-out war. This isn't difficult. Both sides are calculating the costs and how much they're willing to pay.
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